Submissive Peeing And Increase In Anxiety

[kami]

I am not quite sure where to put this one as it could fit here or under health.

Annie, our slightly bonkers Kelpie has always had exceptional bladder control. However lately there have always been particular circumstances under which she would pee - if she was excited, or nervous this largely resolved when she was a single dog, but has reappeared with having a second dog around.

Annie peed in her crate yesterday when asked to dit (she didnt want to sit at the time, and did so against her own inclinations - she has been trained to return to her crate (and is rewarded for doing so for duration) if she too intently starts stalking our pet pigeon.

Lately she has also started submissively peeing around our second dog Rusty. He is a bit 'obnoxious' in that he wont take no for an answer if he wants to play. Lately Annie has been responding with increasing signs of aggression/arousal - hackles up all along back, snaps, snarls, tail between legs...retreats to kennel (then rusty will jump in and continue trying to rough house her). Today she submissively peed after he tried to hump her outside. She has also been biting her nails more. Both dogs are wearing dog calming collars.

Any pointers on what to do with our young bully beagle to break things up? He clearly wont listen to Annies signals to give her space.

What we have tried:

- one on one walks/play time for each dog (daily)

- one dog in crate/one dog out of crate (sometimes, aiming for once a day to give them time out from each other, one on one attention from us)

- both dogs inside/outside, one inside/one outside

She seems anxious, and keeps coming over to us for reassurance inside more than usual.

Any pointers muchly appreciated :)

cheers kamz

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I would be keeping Rusty on lead around her until he learns to be polite.

My dog suffered from the unwanted attentions of a giant poodle cross, and we're still dealing with the fall out from that. She thinks that any dog like that has to be seen off before it can get started and that can upset the dog and the owner. And it's behaviour I don't want her doing.

Protect your Kelpie.

[kami]

Thanks guys. Will keep them separated and limit out time together for the moment to that directly supervised by us. I am thinking a trip back to the vet behaviourist is in order for Annie. It may be time to revisit whether prosac is still a good thing for her.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Why are you getting the behaviourist in for your kelpie when it seems clear to me that it's your second dog Rusty that needs training to behave politely?

http://suzanneclothier.com/he-just-wants-to-say-hi#.VtKP_3lf3YU

[Willem]

Why are you getting the behaviourist in for your kelpie when it seems clear to me that it's your second dog Rusty that needs training to behave politely?

...my thoughts too...

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Why are you getting the behaviourist in for your kelpie when it seems clear to me that it's your second dog Rusty that needs training to behave politely?

...my thoughts too...

Because they both need help and the kelpie has quite likely developed issues that won't just go away because the other dog starts behaving?

hard to tell but post #4 is all about medicating the kelpie and nothing about training the other dog - as if there is nothing wrong with that one.

Chances are if it stops harassing the kelpie - the kelpie won't be so stressed it pees everywhere.

Or the kelpie could have spey incontinence...

[Willem]

Why are you getting the behaviourist in for your kelpie when it seems clear to me that it's your second dog Rusty that needs training to behave politely?

...my thoughts too...

Because they both need help and the kelpie has quite likely developed issues that won't just go away because the other dog starts behaving?

hard to tell but post #4 is all about medicating the kelpie and nothing about training the other dog - as if there is nothing wrong with that one.

Chances are if it stops harassing the kelpie - the kelpie won't be so stressed it pees everywhere.

Or the kelpie could have spey incontinence...

...IMO it is submissive peeing / behaviour ...or fighting one day if the other dog doesn't change behaviour and the kelpie feels cornered; for both (peeing or fighting) you can't blame the kelpie, and if it (the peeing) should be stopped or potential future fighting prevented it has to start with the other dog...

Edited February 28, 2016 by Willem

[kami]

Its a little complicated because Rusty is highly annoying, and obnoxious in his refusal to take no for an answer from Annie. He just refuses to respond to her clear signals to back off, and she is increasingly frustrated by this. He is the instigator, while his behaviour is bad, her anxiety is worsened by his presence and behaviour. Having watched and learnt more.about doggie behaviour I believe Annie is politely doing everything she can to get Rusty to back off - its just not working.

I really don't believe these guys are a good match IMHO, and while it probably will be not well received by most, we are considering returning Rusty if we cannot figure out a way for these guys to get along.

We both love Annie and Rusty too much, and one on one they are both great dogs for different reasons, but we don't want Annie to live life afraid - we worked so hard to turn her into a more confident outgoing dog.

In the mean time, we are liaising with the behavioral unit at the rspca , where we got Rusty from to see if they have any ideas that we haven't tried.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Having watched and learnt more about doggie behaviour I believe Annie is politely doing everything she can to get Rusty to back off - its just not working.

I would be stepping in every time I saw Rusty being obnoxious and pulling him away. I would wait till he focusses on me and then releasing to see what his choice is. If it's straight back to harassing Annie - I'd be putting him on lead, or separating him or putting him in a crate (provided he likes being in a crate and has been crate trained).

I'd only allow him to be off lead around Annie when I could supervise and intervene. And I'd be as consistent about stopping him from harassing her. And I would also be setting him up for making choices about it... ie grab him, hold until he pays attention to me, then release to see what his choice is and if he makes a good choice he can stay off lead and free but if he makes a bad one - he's separated/on lead/in crate.

I think he'd learn pretty quickly what he's supposed to be doing if you could intervene and train (reward for good behaviour / separate for undesirable) instead of watching and going "poor Annie".

[kami]

Addit: last night they had a near serious blue while outside together while being monitored through a window after their walks (we thought they should be pooped, and that being monitored they were safe). Had to be separated by pulling them apart, no actual punctures but lots of hard bites snarls hackles up and retracted gums on Annies part. Rusty on the other hand, seemed to still think it was play......and would have kept chasing her if not for our intervention. This is despite them spending minimal time together except whilst actively supervised.

What happened was that Rusty wanted to play, but Annie didnt. Rusty kept bugging Annie until she ended up getting too aroused, and then chased him and both dogs were standing up on their hindlegs, annies hackles up, tail down, lips fully retracted , biting at Rusty's face, neck and back. No actual damage to Rusty, but she continues to avoid him where possible (goes into crate away from him (we dont let him approach her in the crate).

Will wait and see what the behavioural team says but the lst thing I want is for things to escalate to bites with damage.

[persephone]

perhaps crate Rusty ... leave the kelpie out to enjoy things?

Do you know anything about Rusty? was he maybe removed from Mum/littermates early - and has not learned dog language /inhibition properly? Definitely a good behaviourist is needed to assess both dogs, and then decide on a plan.

[kami]

Thanks for the pointers Mrs. Rusty Bucket. It is clear supervision must be active at all times (which I feel will be hard long term, but certainly we are happy to try in the short/medium term). Collar grabs we can do some positive reinforcement with, and use to give rusty a choice before giving him a time out if need be. Thanks for your recommendations.

[kami]

Hi persephone, thanks for dropping in :)

At the moment we are trying to minimise time spent together alone for the dogs - so when I have to do stuff around the house, one will be inside, the other outside - with a kong, bob a lot, or frozen lambs neck ect. Sometimes we will crate one, have one out. We try to rotate it to make it fair.

We are also doing training together.with simply commands, and rewarding one dog when the other gets a treat to try and build up some great positive associations for when they are together. It seems to be when they are outside

alone there are issues, even when kept an eye on. Yesterday they were only alone together for 20 minutes after a walk - when they had their big kerskuffle.

We know little about Rusty's past, except that he has been a second dog twice before, had issues with housetraining (now largely resolved, had a recent accident but before that not for over a month) and destructiveness. Strangely his prevoous owners kept him in a choke chain as they said he kept chewing off his own collars (wierd). Apparently previously had difficulty with crate training, but now much improved. Still needs work on being crated without Annie around (we like to be able to take them off alone separately when required to go to cafes ect for doggie human socialisation time one on one).

[persephone]

So you do have two 'problem children' .

Rusy certainly has had his share of worries, it seems. How old is he?

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

beagles can be escape artists...

The more consistent you can be about intervening when he's being rude - the better. He will learn. Beagles are insanely smart.

Any kind of sniff out the treat games you can play with him would be good too. I roll kibble up in bath mat, or scatter it over the lawn or put it in a bob a lot or kong wobbler (tho the food release hole in that is too big), any kind of puzzle sniff game that you can think of to engage beagle nose.

In Adelaide there is a tracking club (find the sock and cheese game) that a beagle would definitely enjoy... There might be one in your state. It would be time consuming to actually compete but learning the techniques would bring much joy to your beagle and hopefully wear his brain out.

Just exercise like a big run - can make dogs fitter not tired. Trick training tires their brains out and encourages sleeping.

Teaching beagle any kind of impulse control - ie basic "its yer choice" with food in your hand could be a good game to play too. I play that one with my dog in front of telly.

If the dog can back off the treats - open hand with treats in, if dog can stay backed off from treats, give dog one from other hand. Gradually increase the difficulty by changing one thing... (duration, distance, location of treats...)

[Willem]

...I really don't believe these guys are a good match IMHO, and while it probably will be not well received by most, we are considering returning Rusty if we cannot figure out a way for these guys to get along ...

that happens...and if there is one dog that just doesn't like the company of the other dog there is not much you can do, IMO you can't train her to like the other one, you can only try to manage it...different breeds, different characters and energy levels - doesn't go together sometimes.

Addit: last night they had a near serious blue while outside together while being monitored through a window after their walks (we thought they should be pooped, and that being monitored they were safe). Had to be separated by pulling them apart, no actual punctures but lots of hard bites snarls hackles up and retracted gums on Annies part. Rusty on the other hand, seemed to still think it was play......and would have kept chasing her if not for our intervention. This is despite them spending minimal time together except whilst actively supervised.

What happened was that Rusty wanted to play, but Annie didnt. Rusty kept bugging Annie until she ended up getting too aroused, and then chased him and both dogs were standing up on their hindlegs, annies hackles up, tail down, lips fully retracted , biting at Rusty's face, neck and back. No actual damage to Rusty, but she continues to avoid him where possible (goes into crate away from him (we dont let him approach her in the crate).

Will wait and see what the behavioural team says but the lst thing I want is for things to escalate to bites with damage.

...maybe he has to learn it the hard way...

[kami]

Lol we sure do perse.He was a deceptadog!

I believe we would now be his third home in a year (he is one year and three months old). Probably should set of some alarm bells for us! Fourth if he came from a breeder. A lot of disruption and disconnection for a dog so young...

[kami]

Thanks Snook hubby and I agree about supervision - no more window supervising for now until we feel there are more respectful and tolerant interactions and time has passed.

Will let everyone know what the behavioieal team say, they said they will try and get us in asap given we have already tried loads of stuff they have suggested.

[Guest crazydoglady99]

Oh geez - what a shitty situation. Sorry to hear

Snook - you give the BEST advice!!

[Willem]

Addit: last night they had a near serious blue while outside together while being monitored through a window after their walks (we thought they should be pooped, and that being monitored they were safe). Had to be separated by pulling them apart, no actual punctures but lots of hard bites snarls hackles up and retracted gums on Annies part. Rusty on the other hand, seemed to still think it was play......and would have kept chasing her if not for our intervention. This is despite them spending minimal time together except whilst actively supervised.

What happened was that Rusty wanted to play, but Annie didnt. Rusty kept bugging Annie until she ended up getting too aroused, and then chased him and both dogs were standing up on their hindlegs, annies hackles up, tail down, lips fully retracted , biting at Rusty's face, neck and back. No actual damage to Rusty, but she continues to avoid him where possible (goes into crate away from him (we dont let him approach her in the crate).

Will wait and see what the behavioural team says but the lst thing I want is for things to escalate to bites with damage.

...if dogs' instincts aren't buried too much under all our micromanagement and perhaps ruined by inappropriate human 'education' measures dogs are normally pretty good in sorting out such situations without killing each other. Wrt the scenario you described I would have been reluctant to intervene, due to the following:

• both dogs are not aggressive dogs, the Kelpie showed it more than once that she prefers to solve conflicts without fighting or becoming aggressive, and the beagle's behaviour is not aggressive, but intimidating as he never learned when he has to back off;
  
• ...and by stopping such conflicts you actually take the chance from the beagle that he will finally learn what all this submissive behaviour and warning signs from the kelpie mean.
  
• It seems the kelpie did great and it looks like she has a fine character, not aggressive, but at the end it seems that she is willing to do what a dog does if the other dog oversteps the line.
  

IMO there are 2 options:

• you micromanage them both till you find out that it is just too much work and you will try to rehome the beagle;
  
• or you let them sort it out - the chances are very good (because they are not aggressive dogs) that this will be a more sustainable solution. Once the beagle learned to interpret the kelpie's signals he will know when it is time to back off...and it will be much less stress for the kelpie as she learns that her body language works and keeps the beagle away.
  

The problem is that the beagle never learned appropriate dog social manners before, and it is always harder to learn this at a later stage - the kelpie might hurt him when teaching the lesson, but she won't kill him. You - or someone else - might be able to achieve some improved behaviour with administered training measures, however - IMO - there are things a dog can only learn from a dog.