Dewclaws Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 Hi all . I was looking on the trading post website . It simply amazes me that cost of some puppies . Pugs for $3500 . Oodles fir $3000 French and English Bulldogs $5000. Most of these puppies are backyard bred with little health testing done . Now I am pretty sure dogs and the selling of dogs is covered by normal retail consumer law . No doubt some of these dogs , especially brachy breeds, are going to have on going health problems . Even at a young age . Do you think with these massive prices now being charged for dogs that more people will be taking breeders to small claims court demanding refunds for 'faulty products ' .? There is so serious money exchanging hands ! If you take out the sentimentality of adopting a family member then what you are left with is a product who is going to be very much not fit for purpose yet was a very expensive investment.. I run a business myself . I know my products need to be a certain standards because consumers has legislation on their side . If I don't refund or replace I can be taken to court or fined heavily . How long will breeders (obviously none ethical ones ) get away with charging these prices and not offering the same conditions of sales. . One pet shop on there has a six week health guarantee. Yet charging up to 5000 for a pup . I think these breeders got away for this for a long time because the price of puppies was not worth the bother of going through the courts . But the price just seems to be zooming up every year . My own breed of choice price has gone up about 500 dollars in a couple of years ! It's well over the normal inflation increases of other large purchases . I get that the market is self regulating. But then won't the expectations increase as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 What constantly amazes me is all those crossbred/mongrel pups selling for huge dollars because someone has made up a designer name for the mix... back in the day they were all "free to good home" pups... *sigh* T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dewclaws Posted February 10, 2016 Author Share Posted February 10, 2016 Yeah I even saw a kelpie x litter Selling for $750 . You can get a desexed pup of Similar breeding for half that in rescue ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 What constantly amazes me is all those crossbred/mongrel pups selling for huge dollars because someone has made up a designer name for the mix... back in the day they were all "free to good home" pups... *sigh* T. They are not selling because someone made up a designer name - they are selling because there is a demand for them. There is a demand for them for numerous reasons - some of which has to do with little alternatives being offered when they want them and what they need to do to simply buy it and take it into their homes. Any one who has a product and offers it for sale has to give full disclosure on what their guarantee is and what the buyer can expect. If a breeder explains that anything that happens with the pup after 2 weeks post sale is beyond their control ,they are only saying what they can guarantee the pup wont get etc then thats all consumer law expects - the same as it is for your business - as long as you are clear about what it is you are selling and what you are able to guarantee then the buyer is getting what they pay for and what they accept as things which may go wrong beyond their control. Like it or not ANY breeder can breed a dog that is perfect at time of sale and due to things beyond their control something can go wrong.Its about fit for purpose at time of sale and the buyer having been given full disclosure if there is a fault or potential issue the breeder is aware of for the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dewclaws Posted February 10, 2016 Author Share Posted February 10, 2016 Actually Steve that is incorrect . I have studied a fair bit in to consumer law. Just because someone has a sale of contract that is signed Does not mean that overrides consumer legislation . The thing with pups and dogs is that It never gets challenged in courts . If someone buys a cavoodle for $ 3000 that dies at 18 months due to a congenital heart defect they deffinetly have a case in the small courts that the puppy had a unreasonable length of usage . Doesn't matter what the sale contract says about health warranty . Now it actually costs Approx $500 in administration costs for a case to be heard in in small claim courts (which deal with claims under $5000 ) previously it just was nothing worth the effort . But if your buying a oodle for $3000+ Suddenly recuping some costs sounds worth it , With these zooming costs in many breeds there is no doubt expectations of a healthy animal will increase . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karen15 Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 Buying my first dog in 14 years did leave me gasping for breath after I discovered the cost...... I'd researched breeds before deciding what would suit, so then went looking for a puppy and found out how much a pup cost. Nearly made me look for a different breed. But my boy has been absolutely perfect from the moment I got him, so I don't regret the cost Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dewclaws Posted February 10, 2016 Author Share Posted February 10, 2016 Here is the laws around consumer guarantees. https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consumer-rights-guarantees/consumer-guarantees These are seperate to point of sale warranties . There us deffinetly room to claim that a young animal that dies of a genetic disease or inherited condition has not lived up to to this guarantee . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 Here is the laws around consumer guarantees. https://www.accc.gov...umer-guarantees These are seperate to point of sale warranties . There us deffinetly room to claim that a young animal that dies of a genetic disease or inherited condition has not lived up to to this guarantee . I dont really want to get too involved in this as it really has all been done before. The breeder is covered as long as they have not made any crazy claims. Any breeder can guarantee that the animal is fit and healthy at time of sale and they can state that after a certain time they cant guarantee the animal will not get sick because what impacts on what comes next is beyond the seller's control. Its just not possible for anyone regardless of how many tests and checks they do to be able to be sure that a dog wont get sick or develop a problem including a genetic problem after it leaves the breeders care. Because registered breeders are guaranteeing things like HD and other things they cant control they are at much greater risk than a back yard breeder. When you are a registered ANKC breeder many people come to buy a puppy off you because they believe that by doing so they will get a pup that wont get sick - they have a higher expectation on avoidance of health problems due to the marketing that has been done about registered purebred puppies. This is why someone may go after a registered breeder to have their puppy repaired with expenses paid by the breeder but if they purchase it from a back yard breeder or a pet shop that they dont - because for them there is an implied warranty that the pup they buy will not develop health issues. If I do a DNA test for a known recessive disorder and I know that neither parent has the disease I can absolutely 100% guarantee that a buyer will not ever see that disease in their puppy but most genetic diseases are impacted by things beyond the breeders control after the puppy goes home. I cannot guarantee against recessive disease which I haven't tested for nor can I guarantee against any polygenic disease whether I can screen for it or not. Consumer law takes into account the nature of the product and the claims made by the seller and the get out of gaol free card is if it is beyond the breeders control. Recent case with the husky breeder who was found guilty was based on their false statements which were made to their buyers and the fact that they had not only concealed the fact that they had bred dogs which had already been known to have HD but they lied about it. and presented them selves as having dogs which didnt get it - wouldnt get it and even said they were the healthiest in the country If the breeder removes any possible implied warranty and says this is what I have done - so I can guarantee this...... but be aware this is a living creature and its life and health are impacted by environment, stress, diet, exercise, chemicals etc then it makes no difference if they are registered or not or breeding without testing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dewclaws Posted February 10, 2016 Author Share Posted February 10, 2016 That might be what is currently the expectation at the moment but if the prices keep increasing the way they are and if people get reports from vets saying that dogs are dying or suffering from illnesses due to conditions out of THEIR control then they will seek compensations . I think it's naive to think a person will buy a British bull dog for $5000 and have it die young or have ongoing health expenses and for not an increasing minority's not feel cheated and hard done by . In every other business you pay your what you get . You buy an expensive dog then then the expectation is it will be if sound temprrement and body . If you can not guarantee that then charge a lot less for it . The current philosophy is charge as much as people are willing to pay without these breeds actually improving health wise . It's only time before you see people on a current affair crying about spending a fortune with only a dead dog to show for it . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 That might be what is currently the expectation at the moment but if the prices keep increasing the way they are and if people get reports from vets saying that dogs are dying or suffering from illnesses due to conditions out of THEIR control then they will seek compensations . I think it's naive to think a person will buy a British bull dog for $5000 and have it die young or have ongoing health expenses and for not an increasing minority's not feel cheated and hard done by . In every other business you pay your what you get . You buy an expensive dog then then the expectation is it will be if sound temprrement and body . If you can not guarantee that then charge a lot less for it . The current philosophy is charge as much as people are willing to pay without these breeds actually improving health wise . It's only time before you see people on a current affair crying about spending a fortune with only a dead dog to show for it . I dont think its a matter of time - people are complaining now. Fact is if you buy a breed of dog that has health issues and the breeder lets you know that its a something breed and these things are known to occur in the breed - that they cant guarantee it wont show and you still decide to buy it then you cant yell when it happens. This is even covered in codes of ethics and laws etc . truth in advertising and full disclosure. If a breeder were to say all that stuff about the breed is crap and you definitely want see any of that in your puppy they would deserve all they got when it showed. If the breeder said that it wouldn't happen and they will guarantee that and then they dont thats a whole new ball game . Right now you have breeders who guarantee against HD then when the pup gets HD they find all sorts of things that could have impacted on the pups outcome that they couldnt control eg that since the pup went home its been over fed and has been over weight for several months through its growing period etc The breeder cant determine whether the pup lives in a constant state of stress, if its over fed, under fed, fed a crap diet, over exercised or under exercised, over medicated or exposed to chemicals. How much the pup costs doesn't have any impact on whether a breeder can or should be expected to cover it regardless of whether the buyer thinks because its more expensive its a perfect being that wont get any issues. Right now you get breeders who pay up just to shut the buyer up because they are worried it will impact on their name etc - Setting the price has always been about supply and demand and thank God that most puppy buyers understand that they ARE buying a pet - a living being that no one has any real control over what comes next. I'm one of the people who hear these complaints - a couple a week and its my experience that the majority of people who want to take things further do so for reasons other than money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonwoman Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 I'm one of the people who hear these complaints - a couple a week and its my experience that the majority of people who want to take things further do so for reasons other than money. I am one of those who sees official complaints, and in most cases it would not have got that far if the breeder had shown an ounce of sympathy and concern..........the dismissive, don't want to know about it breeders are the ones the official complaints are made about IMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danois Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 What a complaining consumer often overlooks is that if they are claiming the puppy has a major defect (as opposed to a minor one - as those terms are meant under the Consumer Law) is that the seller of the puppy is the one that gets to choose the remedy the buyer receives - which includes returning the puppy/ dog for a refund. Except the majority of consumers will not return it. There was a case a few years ago now where the seller was only liable to reimburse some vet bills until the date the buyers refused to return the puppy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Gifts Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 Dewclaws I don't have time to post in detail now but there are reasons behind the price of some pups bred by quality breeders. Litters in some breeds are small, potential need to do a cesar, importing semen, health checks, vaccinations, registering, limited number of litters per bitch, only 1 or 2 litters on the ground at the same time. Small numbers in litters and high demand for a breed can also increase the market value (just like any other in demand and hard to obtain product). It really isn't right to compare prices by backyard breeders who are offering no guarantees (because they can't), no post purchase support and who spent squat on the bitch or breeding and socialising their pups with the good breeders who are out there, particularly with breeds prone to some genetic issues. Sadly with puppies you don't always get what you pay for and most consumers don't seem to care enough to shop around. Geez you even get a better 'product' through most rescues than you will ever get for your money with a puppy farmer or backyard breeder. They are the ones ripping consumers off (as are pet shops who stock puppy farmers products). The majority of good breeders have to hold down paid jobs to cover the real outlays of breeding - they are not sitting on their arses, letting their dogs do all the work while lining their pockets. A good breeder is trying to progress the breed, not breed as many pups as they can and sell them for as much as they can. There is a world of difference. And no, I have never bred a dog and have no plans to but I have house sat for several award winning breeders (their bitches and pups) and been involved in a breed specific rescue that has a lot of genetic issues (and a lot of backyard breeders). I've seen with my own eyes the differences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 What constantly amazes me is all those crossbred/mongrel pups selling for huge dollars because someone has made up a designer name for the mix... back in the day they were all "free to good home" pups... *sigh* T. They are not selling because someone made up a designer name - they are selling because there is a demand for them. There is a demand for them for numerous reasons - some of which has to do with little alternatives being offered when they want them and what they need to do to simply buy it and take it into their homes. I beg to differ... the designer name has a hell of a lot to do with the prices people are putting on crossbred pups. People are being led to believe that these pups are of some identifiable "breed", and thusly their "value" has increased in the eyes of the gullible. Example - when people are looking for "oodles", they are assuming a non-shedding coat and the like... Years ago when my Lab and Rotti made babies, people were offering "breed" names for them... Rottador, Labweiler, etc... and were confused as to why I wasn't charging $500+ for them (I was charging $200 and vetting new homes thoroughly). Luckily, the pups were physically and mentally sound, and due to my diligence, went to great homes... the $200 asking price was solely to recoup some of my costs involved in raising them and to ensure that most people weren't buying on a whim... T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 I am one of those who sees official complaints, and in most cases it would not have got that far if the breeder had shown an ounce of sympathy and concern..........the dismissive, don't want to know about it breeders are the ones the official complaints are made about IMHO Yep I agree 100% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 (edited) This is the gumtree policy on advertising of pets... https://help.gumtree.com.au/knowledgebase.php?article=91 All dogs and cats must be microchipped and... Policies for Breeders1.If the advertisement is for a cat or dog then the animal should be microchipped before sale or transfer and the microchip number should be stated in the advertisement. Microchip numbers should be provided in all advertisements nationally regardless of whether mandatory microchipping requirements exist in that particular state (i.e. this requirement applies not just to animals being sold in Victoria). Breeder’s contact details should be permanently recorded on a recognised microchip register prior to sale or transfer. Microchipping documentation should be provided to the buyer to confirm this. 2.Breeders should allow potential buyers to visit the place where the animal was bred to meet the mother animal (and father, if he’s around). 3.Breeders should provide their government registration/licence/permit details to buyers, where this applies in their state/local council area. Requirements can vary between states/regions. 4.If the breeder is ‘registered’ as a member of a non-government association e.g. State Canine council, they should provide their membership details to buyers. This should be in addition to the above requirements. Unregistered breeders A pricing limit of $500 per pet advertised for adoption/sale applies to any unregistered breeder or private advertiser. The price must be stated in the ad. Unregistered breeders/owners are NOT permitted to use the 'Please Contact' price option in their pet ads. And I believe ANKC requires ads contain the breeder member number or something like that? Depending on what the state bodies have implemented. Anything that doesn't comply can be reported... so erm - I've made a few puppy mill ads disappear. If trading post does not have a matching policy maybe RSPCA can be informed and lean on them too. PS found this for trading post but not much else. https://www.tradingpost.com.au/research/pets/microchipping-pets-and-your-responsibilities/ And both should require any advertiser that says they are "registered breeder" to say what they're registered with, ie local council or ankc or mdba etc. Edited February 10, 2016 by Mrs Rusty Bucket Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbedWire Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 (edited) What constantly amazes me is all those crossbred/mongrel pups selling for huge dollars because someone has made up a designer name for the mix... back in the day they were all "free to good home" pups... *sigh* T. I believe that the big interest in designer dogs is based on a fear that purebred dogs are not healthy and crossbreeds are - hybrid vigour. Some TV programs which showed that some breeds have significant health issues - CKCS with skulls too small for their brains comes to mind - have made a big impact on the general public and most importantly people want to think they are buying a healthy pup and they are prepared to pay big dollars for it and they will scream if they don't get it. IMO Sorry if my post is off topic Edited February 10, 2016 by sarspididious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dewclaws Posted February 11, 2016 Author Share Posted February 11, 2016 Wow had no idea of gum trees policies . I am astonished. If the trading post enforced the same rules then the whole dog section would vanish overnight ! The vast majority of dogs are backyard/puppy farm bred (passion for pets is the big outlet in vic) and the vast majority are being sold way way over $500. Considering the trading post is privately owned and breeding sogs is not illegal then I doubt rspca could do anything . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 All it takes is the tick of one box to be able to advertise puppies at any price you like on gum tree. There is no question re who you are registered with and no way for them to check anyway. Say yes to " are you a registered breeder " and there is no restriction. I dont believe it should be regulated anyway and cant see anything worng with someone advertising puppies and selling them for what ever price they want to put on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 cant see anything worng with someone advertising puppies and selling them for what ever price they want to put on them. Requiring that the breeder be registered with MDBA or ANKC or other breed club - means at least there is a code of ethics... I see a lot wrong with random breeding of lots of puppies with no health checks for profit. I see a lot wrong with paddocks full of puppy stalls and not enough human contact - maybe an exception for livestock guardian breeds. But after Oddball the movie - there's people wanting those for a home pet. So maybe even those puppies should get lots of diverse people experience. Requiring microchip details and limiting the price on mutts - goes some way to taking the profit out of it. A small step in the right direction if you ask me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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