A Slight Concern About My Puppies Pedigree.

[Dewclaws]

Hi everyone .

I currently have a 11 week old lab puppy .

Out of curiosity I have been looking in detail through his pedigree . It's lovely to see photos on breeders websites of these gorgeous purebred dogs , especially what they have achieved in both the ring and retrieving competitions and it gives me a idea on what my little lad will end up being like .

There is one thing that is slightly concerning me .

There is one sire that Is very prominent in his pedigree , it's his grand sire on his dams side and also a great grand sire on his dam sire .

Plus a great grand sire and great great grand sire on his sire side .

All up he is mentioned about 4 times in his pedigree .

Reading up on this sire he achieved great things . Actually won sire of the year . If my lab grew up to be like him I would be very happy .

Sadly though he died very recently of cancer at the age of 9 .

Now I know many people would consider 9 a good innings for a large breed . But I do sort of expect a lab to live to the minimum of say 12 . I consider age 9 a premature death .

So considering this dog is so prominent both sides in my pups pedigree I am a bit afraid .

I know enough about genetics to know cancer can be genetic and even if it's recessive being on both sides of his pedigree has me worried .

Any breeders out there would this concern you?

[Steph M]

Genetics certainly play a part but so does environment, food, excerise and general care.

To be totally honest its not predictable and you don't want to spend the next 9 years dreading that day, spend however long you've got loving each other and having fun!

It could be less than 9, or much more but you're in it now, so may as well ride it out in the most excellent way possible. :)

[Rebanne]

Genetics certainly play a part but so does environment, food, excerise and general care.

To be totally honest its not predictable and you don't want to spend the next 9 years dreading that day, spend however long you've got loving each other and having fun!

It could be less than 9, or much more but you're in it now, so may as well ride it out in the most excellent way possible. :)

This! As a breeder the use of that sire like that would not concern me.

[Dame Aussie]

I wouldn't be concerned. No guarantees with living things and cancer can pop up anywhere. I honestly wouldn't worry :)

[Airedaler]

I agree with the others. Don't look for shadows where there are no shadows.

[Steph M]

I agree with the others. Don't look for shadows where there are no shadows.

You can drive yourself mad!

[Rayhay]

Would you believe the opposite happens just as much too!

My beautiful beloved Rottweiler Greta's sire is still well and truly alive and kicking he is now 14 years of age and still going strong. Her mother was around 10 before she passed and I lost my most precious, most delightful girl at age 7 to cancer.

If I go over her life, if there was only one thing I would change, (things I know now but wish I knew then and not even knowing if it was a contributing factor) is that I would not have had her desexed as young as I did, she was around 6 months old when we had her spayed, but upon reading about Osteosarcoma, apparently this can also be a small factor.. anyway, diet, exercise, healthy happy life, doted on, loved and given everything I could possibly give her to be a happy, well adjusted, social and well cared for) still were not enough

I can't believe it, but it just shows you that you never ever know what will happen.

Enjoy your puppy, get on with loving him for whatever amount of time he has, as long as they are loved, given the best opportunities to thrive, it's the best you can do, for any dog.

Ray

[Allerzeit]

Would you believe the opposite happens just as much too!

My beautiful beloved Rottweiler Greta's sire is still well and truly alive and kicking he is now 14 years of age and still going strong. Her mother was around 10 before she passed and I lost my most precious, most delightful girl at age 7 to cancer.

If I go over her life, if there was only one thing I would change, (things I know now but wish I knew then and not even knowing if it was a contributing factor) is that I would not have had her desexed as young as I did, she was around 6 months old when we had her spayed, but upon reading about Osteosarcoma, apparently this can also be a small factor.. anyway, diet, exercise, healthy happy life, doted on, loved and given everything I could possibly give her to be a happy, well adjusted, social and well cared for) still were not enough

I can't believe it, but it just shows you that you never ever know what will happen.

Enjoy your puppy, get on with loving him for whatever amount of time he has, as long as they are loved, given the best opportunities to thrive, it's the best you can do, for any dog.

Ray

Agree with you Ray - the opposite happens as well.

Very similarly to you - we recently lost Neo to cancer at 6 1/2 - his father is going strong and will be 14 this year, I think. His mother is also still going strong and will be 10 this year.

Cancer can be so unpredictable - I personally wouldn't be concerned about the sire.

[denali]

Yes, i too had the opposite. My dog died very suddenly at the age of 7. And only just 7 too.

I messaged his breeder and both his parents, and grandparents were all still going strong!

So it is just a bit unfortunate at times, and there is no predicting it

[DeltaCharlie]

I remember when I got Cody (a border collie x cattle dog) I looked into life expectancy of both breeds, hoped that he would take after the ACD side as they generally live longer, and worried myself silly about the chances of different diseases later in life.

A week after his 2nd birthday he got out of the yard and was killed by a car.

Life is unpredictable. If we spend our time worrying about the what ifs, we forget to enjoy the time we do have. This dog appears 4 times in the past 4 generations. There are 30 dogs in total across 4 generations so that means 26 other dogs influencing the genes of your pup. That could be 26 perfectly healthy, long lived dogs verse 1 who died of a disease with potentially environmental causes (it's not always genetic and you won't know for sure).

[Isabel964]

I am not a breeder, but I recently had one of my dogs diagnosed with a tumour. It got me looking into what I can do to give her every chance of the longest life, and diet is important. I am still learning, but what I am learning I am implementing with my other dog too and will do with future dogs. Things about tumeric that are wonderful (it has to be pure tumeric, cooked, in oil with black pepper I have the recipe) and stay away from sugar and min carbs in the dogs food. I use high quality pet food such as Canidae Grain Free dry food. I cook up salmon and vegies, chicken mince and vegies too - AND I make sure I use chicken and other meat that is hormone and chemical free.

We don't know what causes cancer alot of the time. The cell start to multiply incorrectly for some reason. So we can't allow ourselves to get obsessive about it.

But my thinking is like this - more and more people are born with allergies these days. When I was a kid, I never knew of anyone with an allergy. Now kids in every classroom have allergies. Why? I don't know but I am guessing some things are not helping... polution, preservatives, chemical enhancers, food additives, hormones given to animals to get them to grow, the way meat is processed (alot of chickens are processes in bleach like substances) ... you get what I'm saying.

To don't stress or obsess, but do consider what you feed your dog.and know that sometimes you will do all the right things and they will still get cancer, some people feed their dogs junk and they live to a ripe old age without cancer. All we can do is our best and love them for the time we have with them - whatever that may be.

[Steph M]

Although, on my lap as we speak I have an inherited 16, almost 17 y/o cat who has lived on nothing but tinned whiskas her whole life, so while diet is one part of the puzzle there's still no guarantees, sadly.

Although I think even if I had a crystal ball that told me how long we had I don't think I'd want to know. I'd obsess.

[Steve]

Hi everyone .

I currently have a 11 week old lab puppy .

Out of curiosity I have been looking in detail through his pedigree . It's lovely to see photos on breeders websites of these gorgeous purebred dogs , especially what they have achieved in both the ring and retrieving competitions and it gives me a idea on what my little lad will end up being like .

There is one thing that is slightly concerning me .

There is one sire that Is very prominent in his pedigree , it's his grand sire on his dams side and also a great grand sire on his dam sire .

Plus a great grand sire and great great grand sire on his sire side .

All up he is mentioned about 4 times in his pedigree .

Reading up on this sire he achieved great things . Actually won sire of the year . If my lab grew up to be like him I would be very happy .

Sadly though he died very recently of cancer at the age of 9 .

Now I know many people would consider 9 a good innings for a large breed . But I do sort of expect a lab to live to the minimum of say 12 . I consider age 9 a premature death .

So considering this dog is so prominent both sides in my pups pedigree I am a bit afraid .

I know enough about genetics to know cancer can be genetic and even if it's recessive being on both sides of his pedigree has me worried .

Any breeders out there would this concern you?

As a breeder if I knew at the time of mating that he had died of cancer then I would do more research and it would only be part of what I would use to determine what mating I would choose but for me it's probably a red light.

Cancer as well as other diseases which may have a genetic component can be affected by so many additive effects- genetically and environmentally which will never show up in DNA labs because its not about one gene. Disease such as PRA can be spotted via a lab because it's a simple recessive gene and all it needs is one gene from each parent to be affected but polygenic diseases such as some cancers and Hip Dysplasia etc need more knowledge of the health of all of the dogs in the pedigree because they are affected by additive effects.

This effect is sometimes referred to as all or none threshold effects. This means that you have to have all of the variables lined up for a trait or disease to show up. If an animal is below threshold it will have no clinical signs because the threshold develops due to additive effects.Several genes influence a threshold trait butthe trait will not be expressed in a dog unless a critical number of genes is inherited. Genes have to come from both parents and not necessarily in equal numbers, since the trait will be expressed in a puppy if it happens to inherit any combination which gives it the critical number of genes needed to produce the trait.Then things not normally related to what the pup inherits can impact on the threshold too.

To explain and keep it simple - lets say this cancer needs 10 undesirable genes to produce it. A puppy may get 3 from the sire and 7 from the Dam and it will show cancer because it reached the critical number of 10. This may also be influenced by other things such as exposure to chemicals the pup and his mother and grandmother may have been exposed to , diet of the pup his mum and his grandmother, the stress of his Mum and the environment he lives in and is raised in,hormones or the lack of them. It may be a one off thing that will never happen again it may be something that more than one pup in a litter turns up with but these things are a big challenge for breeders because dogs which don't have the same combination which takes them below the threshold for showing they have the disease cant be spotted and you cant determine and we can never know where the genes will fall and how they will combine or how all of the other variables come together in just the right combination. We can test and score and pray,study pedigrees and take out what appears to be risky dogs form the genepool but the reality is with living creatures there is always a chance that something will hit you when you didn't see it coming. Then of course you may have a dog that has a high threshold but will still get whacked because threshold is lowered by exposure to chemicals known - or not known to be carcinogenic.

What I'm trying to say is if he is the only dog in the pedigree that has had cancer at a relatively old age I reckon there's no more to worry about as a dog owner with this dog than you would need to for any other dog. Relax love him and enjoy him.

As a dog owner you can do some things to try to ensure those additive effects don't have a chance not just in that disease but any other threshold issue. Get educated on diet,exercise and chemicals,make sure he has a stress free environment and somewhere comfy to sleep and play and understand how it may affect his immune system and health- not because you are concerned about cancer but because its what is most likely help to prevent any problems.

Edited January 31, 2016 by Steve

[Dewclaws]

Thanks everyone for the replies .

I hate cancer so much . Currently losing my Dad to it and we lost my husbands brother to brain cancer a few years ago .

So I guess any mention of it brings my anxiety out .

I do agree it's so unpredictable ..... Dogs have such short fleeting lives that you really want them to be with you as long as possible . The family and I have fallen hopelessly in love with our new family member .

I guess all we can do now is love, cherish him. Look after him well and simply hope for the best .