jars Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 (edited) Hi, Pepper just turned 5 months old and the breeder and vets advice is to desex at about 5 1/2 to 6 months old. But someone recently commented that we should wait till 12 months or at least till her first season. Then there are others who say do it before her first season. The main reason seems to be to let her hormones kick in for growth and development. I am just seeking your experiences of when you desex your dog and what your experience was in terms of pros and cons of doing it at a particular age. Also, any tips of things to keep an eye on when desexing. Thanks Edited January 12, 2016 by jars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 (edited) I didn't desex my dog (female)...she just went through her first season (13 month old) and it wasn't an 'inconvenience'. Main reason for not desexing for me are: high risk of incontinence (why should I trade one inconvenience with another which then I have to medicate?) higher risk of reduced live expectancy. significant higher risk of adverse effects for booster vaccination. discharge not a big issue for us as she is most of the time in the backyard; her bed is in the laundry and the floor is quickly wiped plus she kept herself pretty clean (might be different for people living in a flat). I like entire dogs. ETA: http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2013/09/30/neutering-health-risks.aspx http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/javma.2005.227.1102?journalCode=javma& Edited January 12, 2016 by Willem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 Hi jars, I would take your vets advice, I've desexed my female dogs at that age and have had absolutely no problems with any of them, and one of them lived til the ripe old age of 17 ???? Much easier all round. CHA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaCharlie Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 What breed is Pepper? That makes a huge difference :) A small breed could probably be done at 9 months, a great dane not until 3years. This is a good article explaining the importance of holding off until growth plates have closed. The time for that will vary between breeds and even individuals within breeds, but typically the smaller the dog the sooner they stop growing (for obvious reasons :laugh: ) Spay Neuter and Joint Disease My 9yr old border collie was speyed at 6months. Her whole structure was altered and she ended up much straighter in the back end than her puppy structure suggested she would, the extra length in her back legs caused her to become bum-high, and as a result placed additional stress on her pelvis. She was diagnosed with spondylosis in her spine and pelvic region at the age of 3. Had she been a pet or if I hadn't had the benefit of a very knowledgeable chiropractor working on my dogs regularly, I probably would never have known. With a lot of hard work and rehab she is still competing in agility and most people have no idea of the issues she has. I wouldn't expect the average pet owner to notice anything different about her. It doesnt change the fact that the issue exists and affects her life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 (edited) There's no scientific doubt that the growth plates take longer to close if an animal is desexed before sexual maturity. And the long bones will be longer. However, what that actually means for dogs in terms of joint health is NOT clear - the above link cherry picks the current literature - lots of correlation studies and very difficult to compare like with like. In addition outcomes from these studies are mixed - some for and some against. I wrote a lit review on the subject so know the research pretty well. That said, personally I own entire dogs and bitches - yes I breed but I also do dog sports and my Dalmatian has never sired a litter. There is enough doubt in my mind about joint health to keep them entire. I also suggest to my puppy buyers to hold off on desexing until 18 months - with high energy dogs it's a precautionary. I also am happy for the males in particular to remain entire but not to be bred from unless we both agree. I place my pups extremely carefully but accept that this will not always be within my control. Haven't had to deal with bitches yet as I kept the only one. Letting a bitch have a season is not without its risks either which is why vets will often recommend early desexing. There is no perfect answer. Have a chat with your breeder - explain that you don't want to breed but want to do the best thing for your pup. Edited January 13, 2016 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jars Posted January 13, 2016 Author Share Posted January 13, 2016 What breed is Pepper? That makes a huge difference :) A small breed could probably be done at 9 months, a great dane not until 3years. She is a Standard Schnauzer. At what age do they normally get their first season? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 What breed is Pepper? That makes a huge difference :) A small breed could probably be done at 9 months, a great dane not until 3years. She is a Standard Schnauzer. At what age do they normally get their first season? Personally if I could manage a bitch in season I would wait until sexual maturity and growth plate closure. As to when - dogs don't read the text books unfortunately and I've heard of everything from 6 months to 2 years!!! The thing is desexing at 7 or 8 months is no different to desexing at 5 or 6 months. You are waiting for the flood of sex hormones that promote growth plate closure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steph M Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 Mind you if its something that can't be managed that's another story IMO. There's risks, yes but there are also risks if she gets out and gets herself in the family way, haha. All comes down to how you feel you can manage her and willingness to accept whatever risk is involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juice Posted January 13, 2016 Share Posted January 13, 2016 If your breeder is recommending when to do it why wouldn't you trust her to know the breed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jars Posted January 13, 2016 Author Share Posted January 13, 2016 (edited) I do trust the breeder. Just seeking other experiences as the subject was brought up to me again recently. I will be speaking to my vet again before deciding when to get it done. I do have another dog that is a desexed male, so no sure how that would complicate things. Edited January 13, 2016 by jars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvsdogs Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 Do you intend doing any dog sports with your dog eg agility. If so I would wait until after her 1st season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted January 16, 2016 Share Posted January 16, 2016 My general advice would be "not before six months". If you can hold off a little longer, that's great but if a bitch in season would be a major headache, I'd go now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 another interesting article about a study disclosing adverse health effects of spaying / neutering: https://www.avma.org/News/JAVMANews/Pages/131101a.aspx Critics say that the study is breed specific (Golden Retrievers) hence the results might not be valid for other breeds. However, other studies for Rottweilers and Vizslas show similar adverse health effects: http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2014/06/13/neutering-spaying-cancer-risk.aspx The results of the Vizsla study (from 2014) are pretty shocking, quote from the later link: The Vizsla study involved 2,505 dogs, and reported these results: Dogs neutered or spayed at any age were at significantly increased risk for developing mast cell cancer, lymphoma, all other cancers, all cancers combined, and fear of storms, compared with intact dogs. Females spayed at 12 months or younger, and both genders neutered or spayed at over 12 months had significantly increased odds of developing hemangiosarcoma, compared with intact dogs. Dogs of both genders neutered or spayed at 6 months or younger had significantly increased odds of developing a behavioral disorder, including separation anxiety, noise phobia, timidity, excitability, submissive urination, aggression, hyperactivity, and/or fear biting. When it came to thunderstorm phobia, all neutered or spayed Vizslas were at greater risk than intact Vizslas, regardless of age at neutering. The younger the age at neutering, the earlier the age at diagnosis with mast cell cancer, cancers other than mast cell, hemangiosarcoma, lymphoma, all cancers combined, a behavioral disorder, or fear of storms. Compared to intact dogs, neutered and spayed dogs had a 3.5 times higher risk of developing mast cell cancer, regardless of what age they were neutered. Spayed females had nine times higher incidence of hemangiosarcoma compared to intact females, regardless of when spaying was performed, however, no difference in incidence of this type of cancer was found for neutered vs. intact males. Neutered and spayed dogs had 4.3 times higher incidence of lymphoma (lymphosarcoma), regardless of age at time of neutering. Neutered and spayed dogs had five times higher incidence of other types of cancer, regardless of age of neutering. Spayed females had 6.5 times higher incidence of all cancers combined compared to intact females, and neutered males had 3.6 times higher incidence than intact males. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddogdodge Posted January 17, 2016 Share Posted January 17, 2016 It's a tough one for sure! There are definitely pros and cons for both. I always used to think, why bother desexing if you're responsible... My Kelpie is now 11, we never got her desexed, not for any particular reason... It just never really happened. Now she's just developed mammary cancer. So she went under the knife in November to have that removed and to be desexed... Vet said she was also on the way to developing Pyometra, so it's lucky we got her desexed now! I always read about the increased risk of cancer in entire dogs, but never really took it seriously... Now this has shaken me enough. My next female dog I have will be desexed... not until 18 months though. Having an entire dog can also make things hard if you plan to travel a lot with them and get out doing lots of things. Females spayed at 12 months or younger, and both genders neutered or spayed at over 12 months had significantly increased odds of developing hemangiosarcoma, compared with intact dogs. I've heard this before! It's scary! Last March one of my beloved ferrets died from this cancer... it's truly awful!! I've also heard that desexing (especially desexing early) increases the risk of endocrine issues in dogs. It's also interesting because something crazy like 90% of ferrets die from the same thing. In america most ferrets are desexed at around 3 weeks old before going to pet shops... and even in Australia, most ferrets are desexed fairly early as they can die if they're not desexed, not to mention they're much nicer to live with. Makes me wonder if it's the same in dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jars Posted January 17, 2016 Author Share Posted January 17, 2016 Thanks for all the input on this. I have contacted the breeder and she says that they normally get their first season around 9 months, so I can wait a little. However, I do have a male dog (desexed). Will the male dog go after her in her first season even if he is desexed? He was desexed around 3 months old as I got him from a shelter and they desex very early. I think this will be the major point in deciding when to get it done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 (edited) Thanks for all the input on this. I have contacted the breeder and she says that they normally get their first season around 9 months, so I can wait a little. However, I do have a male dog (desexed). Will the male dog go after her in her first season even if he is desexed? He was desexed around 3 months old as I got him from a shelter and they desex very early. I think this will be the major point in deciding when to get it done. Some desexed males show interest and some don't. I juggle an entire male and 2 entire bitches in a very moderate sized house - it's actually not too big of a deal if you're prepared and can do a bit of crate/yard rotation. I keep the girls separate from my boy from Day 1 as it just helps him not lose his head. I don't leave my girls outside unsupervised and only let them toilet in the back yard. I don't walk them but will put them in the car and take them training, running and swimming on private property. Lots of yummy chews, bones and training to keep everyone occupied. Some girls have messy seasons and some don't. Some change temperament temporarily and some don't. You could board your boy or leave him with friends/family when she is receptive to being mated...timing depends on the bitch but you look for the discharge changing from red to a straw colour - on average around 10 days into the season but as I said they don't read the text books! Feel free to ask any questions you like :) Edited January 18, 2016 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave73 Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 (edited) Ive spoken to some specialist vets regarding this. And the oncologist I spoke to said they don't desex there females before 12 months they prefer 18 months as the health benefits way out way the headache of a dog in season. They all said the bigger the breed the longer you should wait. My Cane Corso girl just got done at 13 months and a litter mate who was desexed at 6 months is taller/leggier and leaner than our girl. I had a desexed male and he showed no interest at all he actually went no where near her. Edited January 18, 2016 by Dave73 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddogdodge Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 My experience is no, a desexed male won't go after a female. However I have heard of the select few that do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted January 18, 2016 Share Posted January 18, 2016 (edited) Thanks for all the input on this. I have contacted the breeder and she says that they normally get their first season around 9 months, so I can wait a little. However, I do have a male dog (desexed). Will the male dog go after her in her first season even if he is desexed? He was desexed around 3 months old as I got him from a shelter and they desex very early. I think this will be the major point in deciding when to get it done. ???...why is this the 'major point' if he is desexed?...there is no guaranty that neutering will change any behaviour...how does he behaves regarding other females? Edited January 18, 2016 by Willem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_PL_ Posted January 19, 2016 Share Posted January 19, 2016 Thanks for all the input on this. I have contacted the breeder and she says that they normally get their first season around 9 months, so I can wait a little. However, I do have a male dog (desexed). Will the male dog go after her in her first season even if he is desexed? He was desexed around 3 months old as I got him from a shelter and they desex very early. I think this will be the major point in deciding when to get it done. I've had newbie arrivals in season before I can desex them. The desexed boys may not have the full mating drive happening but some can go completely silly. Some ignore, some become like Pepe Le Pew bugging her ... unless she arrives ready to stand which is even worse. It's like they know something interesting is going on but don't quite understand what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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