How To Teach An Ex Show Dog To Sit

[Dogsfevr]

Show dogs aren't taught not to sit .like i said in my previous post my ES aren't a sitting breed they stand or lay & you have said "sometimes" sits .

Its the breed but it doesn't mean they can't sit its just not for them,i find with my Setters standing & drop is natural because in the field that is what they do .

I have owned a GSD & yep training the two is like chalk & cheese ,your GSD will do anything to please ,you peeve and English Setter off & it will make a meal of you & the battle will begin .like i say there all about "why" so "why " should i sit & if there is no real reason to do it they won't .

What you need to do is reward when he sits in his day to day life & make him realize that makes you excited.

[kamuzz]

You don't need hands on :)

Personally I do a lot of shaping (ie wait for the behaviour and then reward it) but luring can be handy for dogs that have zero idea about offering behaviours. What I prefer to do, however, is lure with one hand, mark "yes" for the right behaviour and then reward with a treat from the OTHER hand. Gets them thinking a bit more. Try marking "yes" for what's called successive approximations - so think what sit looks like from a stand - head up? Yes, treat. Head up a bit higher? Yes, treat. Rump slightly drops? Yes, treat etc etc. Use AMAZING treats and lighten the mood - play before, during and after, turn it into a game. Make it easy to be successful.

1. Get his hips checked. A dog that reluctant to sit might well have a good reason for it.

2. Whatever you've been doing isn't working. You need to find another way to approach the issue. The first thing I'd do is go hands off. Luring usually works and I also wonder if technique is the problem. SLOW DOWN THE LURE. You want the dog's head to tilt back, not for him to do gopher impressions to get to it. Put the food just out of reach and back over the dog's head, not raise it higher. You want him to raise his muzzle up and back - that should put put pressure on him to drop his bum. Do not use a cue until the dog can reliably sit when lured.

3. You don't have to be in front of the dog for this. if he can stand beside you, you can lure from there.

4. You basically train a show dog to do something the way you'd train any other dog. Unless he's been corrected for sitting (which is possible), in which case it may take longer - if that is the case, find another place to do it and don't do it with the dog on lead. Point 3 may help.

Today we went to visit Sas :D And I think we can rule out his hips being the problem, as in HD or anything equally scary.

What we did learn:

- TSD's comments about dogs that have zero idea about offering behaviours are likely to be very helpful. (Sacha did suggest I look into clicker training.) Veli has no clue about lots of things. For example, Sacha was offering him treats from a jar. He never did look at her as a hint he wanted a treat or that he had worked out she was the source of the treats - just kept staring at the jar. And HW's comments about not standing in front or being on lead may help too. We think he has probably been corrected for sitting.

- His neck bends too far, almost as though he has a ewe neck. So when you lure him, he just keeps moving his head back. He can almost rest his head on his back!

- Sacha has poked and prodded him and found some areas of tightness around his hips, that have been treated. (She may come into this thread and update us with the technical terms.)

- His tail is weird. I think the term is "gay tail" except that Veli holds his tail up like a flag post, way past horizontal with the ground. After Sacha had finished there were a few moments when his tail was normal in its position. We'll just have to wait and see what happens.

I don't feel so bad now as he didn't behave perfectly for her, which would have made me feel like a right idiot :laugh:

setterspan, do you know if a ewe neck is a common conformation fault in Setters?

Edited February 9, 2016 by kamuzz

[sas]

Heya :)

He wasn't a dog that concerned me terribly. He's a little special in the intellect dept. so would benefit from learning how to learn and then I think he'll find the concept of sitting much easier, he's coming into this as a dog that didn't have sit, drop type obedience training etc. as a pup so his default is a stand, also as another poster experienced in the breed mentioned the 'sit' isn't necc. their thing.

To lure him into a sit isn't workable because as we learned today it looks like he has an ewe neck so as you lure him into a sit his head simply goes back past a 11:55pm clock position signalling a potential ewe neck vs changing his balance to rock into a sit. As an ex-show dog, applying pressure to his hind end has him stand even more solid.

He has some conformation faults as all dogs do and they contribute to some compensation issues such as a sore back and some pelvis alignment issues. He had some right tenderness and restriction in his right hip, however none of these things would stop a dog in general from going into a sit position in most cases as they're fairly mild.

His tail is stuck in gay tail position on a permanent basis whilst standing and there was restriction through the tail and sacrum, after the session including an adjustment his tail did drop to a more nature position, so we're on wait and watch to see if the tail comes down into a more natural position on an ongoing basis even if in gay position when alert/happy etc. which would be considered normal and typical if this is simply his conformation. I did consider whether this would stop him from sitting however he's engaging his 'sit' muscles fine at other times so I don't believe the restriction felt was enough to stop him from sitting.

I think right now, it's just a bit more of a intellect / training challenge that some incremental training will probably assist with so he can learn in baby steps but clicker training will help understand the concept of learning to begin with.

Lastly, he's an incredibly handsome beautifully temperamented dog and I would have one in a heart beat hehehe

Edited February 9, 2016 by sas

[Dogsfevr]

Stacks of dogs have ewe necks but it doesn't stop them from being trained its easy to visibly see ,In fact Greyhounds would be one of the worse with Ewe necks & when you look for the issue you will see how common it is .When ES sit anyway they sit often with a strange appearance they sit but often with the head /neck right back ,it doesn't like right but its them

Gay tail also wont stop train ability ,

In the US ES as hunting dogs tails are as gay as they come when working & they sit fine .

ES are a very smart breed but training is all about why ,they learn to quickly but i also find its a breed owners give up to quickly because they often have that vague appearance so many an obedience trainer list them as not smart just like Irish Setters

Edited February 10, 2016 by showdog

[setterspan]

setterspan, do you know if a ewe neck is a common conformation fault in Setters?

I have never seen an ES with a ewe neck. All of mine have been very flexible physically though. With ES it is all about the incentive or motivation. They don't like repetition and you must use very high value rewards. I am trying to post a pic of my boy at a Rally trial late last year so you can see it can be done LOL!

[kamuzz]

If I compare our two ES, they are very different. We had no trouble teaching Mazda to sit or drop using luring. But Veli doesn't seem to move his body in response to a lure. When his head comes up, his back-end doesn't start to go down.

I think showdog has a valid point on the owners giving up! That's why in two years we haven't solved this problem. Hence this thread. I need help to learn a different way because what I know isn't working.

If you can't lure, and you can't apply pressure what is left?

Sacha was suggesting marker -based training. Maybe if we reward him for tiny increments, he'll get there eventually.

[JulesP]

Have you tried to get him to move his feet like I suggested? You need to unstick him first. Side ways movements will probably be easier.

Stick the lure right in his mouth and let him have a nibble on it before you start to try and move him. Something like a chicken neck might be a good lure for this. The second he moves any feet praise like crazy.

[Willem]

If I compare our two ES, they are very different. We had no trouble teaching Mazda to sit or drop using luring. But Veli doesn't seem to move his body in response to a lure. When his head comes up, his back-end doesn't start to go down.

I think showdog has a valid point on the owners giving up! That's why in two years we haven't solved this problem. Hence this thread. I need help to learn a different way because what I know isn't working.

If you can't lure, and you can't apply pressure what is left?

Sacha was suggesting marker -based training. Maybe if we reward him for tiny increments, he'll get there eventually.

You can teach him 'learning based on rewards'...start with something that is easily achievable (recall...drop...fetch...bark...no-pull...heel...let him walk on a board...taking something special in his snout, e.g. newspaper...whatever is easy for your dog...) and use a good treat as reward. The more he gets into this 'game of seeking' for the right choice that results in a yummy treat as a reward (if there is the right choice depending on the cue) the easier it will be to teach him more challenging tricks ('sit' is obviously somehow challenging for him, so wait with this 'trick' till he learned 2-3 other tricks).

[kamuzz]

It is more like he has been taught not to sit. Also possibly been taught to not follow the treat, but to stand and look pretty instead. To plant his feet but show expression.

I had some interesting experiences with a show horse once. I thought he as being a pain but was actually very well trained. It was just his training was hindering what I wanted to do.

So maybe work on unsticking his feet first.

Have you tried to get him to move his feet like I suggested? You need to unstick him first. Side ways movements will probably be easier.

Stick the lure right in his mouth and let him have a nibble on it before you start to try and move him. Something like a chicken neck might be a good lure for this. The second he moves any feet praise like crazy.

No, I haven't yet. So praising for anything is good? I won't make things worse?

[JulesP]

It is more like he has been taught not to sit. Also possibly been taught to not follow the treat, but to stand and look pretty instead. To plant his feet but show expression.

I had some interesting experiences with a show horse once. I thought he as being a pain but was actually very well trained. It was just his training was hindering what I wanted to do.

So maybe work on unsticking his feet first.

Have you tried to get him to move his feet like I suggested? You need to unstick him first. Side ways movements will probably be easier.

Stick the lure right in his mouth and let him have a nibble on it before you start to try and move him. Something like a chicken neck might be a good lure for this. The second he moves any feet praise like crazy.

No, I haven't yet. So praising for anything is good? I won't make things worse?

You are praising for the tiniest try so that he knows he is on the right track. And also so he knows he isn't being bad. You are having to undo training not just train. Even if he stretched his nose out to the ground I would be praising that. Anything that is not a show stack. I wouldn't be trying to move him forwards at first though as he would have been taught not to come forwards for food.

[Dogsfevr]

I think showdog has a valid point on the owners giving up! That's why in two years we haven't solved this problem.

Its not a case of solving the problem but for two years he has been taught what he is doing is fine .

I don't believe being a show dog has anything to do it.

Even when we train to free bat the dogs learn to walk foward or back & honestly many of us allow the dogs to sit especially when waiting to go in or in the line up if its sunny ,They learn to stand to be groomed ,some will brush out laying down they learn to stand on 3 legs whilst there feet are being trimmed

Some ES thrive on learning others seriously just don't care & happy just to be "easy" hence why many people fall in love with there laid back no fuss nature .

I agree i would be teaching something else to allow the dog to get it & understand it makes you happy.ES thrive on human emoticion & reaction,they love there food but there connection to human emoticion i find is very spot on ,

For many ES being that calm companion who lays by your side means so much to them as you sit there rewarding & calmly patting ,

[sas]

Stacks of dogs have ewe necks but it doesn't stop them from being trained its easy to visibly see ,In fact Greyhounds would be one of the worse with Ewe necks & when you look for the issue you will see how common it is .When ES sit anyway they sit often with a strange appearance they sit but often with the head /neck right back ,it doesn't like right but its them

Gay tail also wont stop train ability ,

In the US ES as hunting dogs tails are as gay as they come when working & they sit fine .

ES are a very smart breed but training is all about why ,they learn to quickly but i also find its a breed owners give up to quickly because they often have that vague appearance so many an obedience trainer list them as not smart just like Irish Setters

Thanks for your feedback :)

I don't feel Ewe neck stops him from sitting however it (if it is ewe neck) impedes his ability to be lured back into a sit, so a different training method is necessary. His tail isn't typical 'gay', there is something else going on with its function. I would not believe gay tail impedes a dog to sit.

My experience with him is that he doesn't understand how to learn and that he needs to understand that concept first and then the rest can come and that would easily come via clicker training where he can learn that little steps are rewarding.

All in all, I don't believe his sit challenge is a structural one - that he is capable, it's just going to take a non-traditional method. He wasn't vague looking to me but his general nature didn't seem 'quick' but I think that's all very work-able with reward based training - we all know you don't have to be a genius to know how to sit, drop etc. Veli's owner has trained her other Setter and other dogs in general so I don't think it's handler or breed problem perse', it's more just learning how to think outside of the box with this specific dog.

Edited February 11, 2016 by sas

[Two Best Dogs!]

After you teach him a marker you could try tricking him into sitting. Like, if you put something like a post it note on his back foot will he sit down to take it off? Bit of tape? Wet food or feet?

If it's something he really doesn't do often I would expect you'll need to build his muscles up in that movement too.

[bissym]

It is more like he has been taught not to sit. Also possibly been taught to not follow the treat, but to stand and look pretty instead. To plant his feet but show expression.

I had some interesting experiences with a show horse once. I thought he as being a pain but was actually very well trained. It was just his training was hindering what I wanted to do.

So maybe work on unsticking his feet first.

Have you tried to get him to move his feet like I suggested? You need to unstick him first. Side ways movements will probably be easier.

Stick the lure right in his mouth and let him have a nibble on it before you start to try and move him. Something like a chicken neck might be a good lure for this. The second he moves any feet praise like crazy.

THANK YOU SO MUCH JulesP. This is exactly what we are dealing with and I was starting to doubt whether I knew what I was doing (new dog after many years). Our GR who is about to turn one is exactly what you describe above: needing to unstick him, taught not to follow the treat, etc. I've started praising him when he shows interest in the treat and he is starting to recognise "Good Boy" may mean a treat is on offer.

Lord knows how the breeder plans to show him again occasionally after he's been living in a family home and learns traditional obedience!

[skip]

I can't remember if i posted before but i was trying to shape a dog at training recently and found her really slow. Well, a week on and i walked past the dog and she remembered me so i again tried the offered sit. Which she gave me even if again pretty slow.its a basengi? Btw.

So wouldn't the stand gradually become more extinct and the freshly heaps rewarded sit become more popular?

[Dogsfevr]

Lord knows how the breeder plans to show him again occasionally after he's been living in a family home and learns traditional obedience!

There shouldn't be any issues providing you have taught the dog the stand command .

Show dogs live in family homes & learn things you now & still excel in the show ring