Grimm93 Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 Hello, I am going to import a dog from overseas and will be importing it with another breeder on a co-ownership arrangement. So I will be owning half the puppy, paying half of the import costs and the dog will be permanently living with me so that I can show it. (I show dogs more regularly than the person I am improving the dog with). I have been trying to look up co-ownership agreements so that I have an idea of what I can expect to happen, but I am only finding information on a breeder selling a puppy and co-owning with new owners. Could someone please tell me what I should expect an agreement to look like and what should be included in it? Should the dog be insured and who should pay for insurance? Vet bills? Etc? Will be my first time importing a dog and first time co-owning. Thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 This is something you & the other party need to discuss ,co ownership agreements are a very personal thing .Ideally this should be all sorted before you even start the process especially with an import . I have co owned 17 dogs but i wouldn't bring an import co owned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimm93 Posted January 4, 2016 Author Share Posted January 4, 2016 We have only just started the process of choosing an import but haven't gotten into the nitty-gritty discussion yet - we know which kennel and which bitch we want a puppy from - we will be having a discussion about all of the above but just wanted to find out others' opinions and thoughts on how it should work, or if others have done it and how it worked for them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mjosa Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 I would never import in co ownership, too many things can go wrong, I have seen this happen with someone I know personally, not my breed, and it ended up very sour and some legal action taken. I imported a dog but he belonged just too me. Be very very sure about the person you plan to do this with and have everything covered in writing and signed by both parties with a JP to witness the signing. As for vet bills and any expenses relating to the import such as vet bills freight and quarantine, except show entries, I would say fifty fifty with the costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dewclaws Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 Out of interest what would the original breeder get out of this arrangement ? From my knowledge of co ownership it's more about breeding . But surely it would be cheaper for the breeder to buy back semen or get a good puppy that she buys back from the bitch then putting up export fees and vet bills? Unless she wants the bitch back permanently at one stage then what are you long term getting out of it? Just would seem better for you to buy pup outright but remain in good terms with original breeder in that the breeder gets first dibs on anything the bitch produces that she want to import back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirislin Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 Out of interest what would the original breeder get out of this arrangement ? From my knowledge of co ownership it's more about breeding . But surely it would be cheaper for the breeder to buy back semen or get a good puppy that she buys back from the bitch then putting up export fees and vet bills? Unless she wants the bitch back permanently at one stage then what are you long term getting out of it? Just would seem better for you to buy pup outright but remain in good terms with original breeder in that the breeder gets first dibs on anything the bitch produces that she want to import back? I think the OP means there are 2 people here in Australia importing a dog that they will co own. I assume the original breeder in the other country is selling their dog to 2 people in Australia. That's the way I read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 We have only just started the process of choosing an import but haven't gotten into the nitty-gritty discussion yet - we know which kennel and which bitch we want a puppy from - we will be having a discussion about all of the above but just wanted to find out others' opinions and thoughts on how it should work, or if others have done it and how it worked for them Then you need to discuss litters,what stud dogs you may want to choose,if the breed has health issues what type of clearances would you both agree to with matings,Will pups be sold on co ownership to new homes or outright,will each party be wanting a pup & will they be co owned or outright & what prefix would the litters go under ,will you have a joint prefix for litters or just sign it over to each person for litters .Who will whelp the litters ,the list can go on & on Does the other party fully support the way your dogs live,do you feed the same diet & have the same beliefs in raisng & presenting & general daily life . Do your dogs run offleash & if so would the other party agree to that . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted January 4, 2016 Share Posted January 4, 2016 all costs of the dog should be 50/50. Both owners get the benefits of wins in the ring. Future breeding plans need to be thought out and agreed to including who chooses the sire and where the dog would whelp if a bitch and who gets 1st pick etc. If a dog, who chooses which bitches are allowed to be bred to him, stud fee, puppies back? I would certainly insure the dog. These are just for starters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dewclaws Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Oh that makes more sense . The only co ownership I heard about us pups being sold on breeding terms . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRG Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 This could be a minefield, Grimm. Tread very carefully because buying the puppy could be just the start of a long tortuous journey! First questions - do you both know the breeder of your puppy personally? Have you both seen his/her stock - not just the prospective parents? Do you both agree 100% on the advantages of getting this puppy? If so why? I ask this because I take it that you want a dog to show, she wants it for breeding - can be two very different things! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 It could work really well ... or not. Best thing is to try and think of every scenario you can up front, discuss it and put it in writing. Also have provision in the contract for a 'buyout' with agreed terms if one owner wants to leave the relationship and the dog is to be transferred to one name only. there may be several scenarios for this - such as what happens if the dog is no longer or never is breedable, when it is agreed it be desexed for whatever reason, or simply if the relationship becomes 'untenable'. for a male, also provisions on collection and ownership of semen such as whether you can each collect and own semen from the dog solely in your own names or whether that stays co owned too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 Who will be breeding the dog? Who will be raising the puppies and how will you split profit/costs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimm93 Posted January 5, 2016 Author Share Posted January 5, 2016 We are importing a male - we both want to use him in our breeding program. I have bought 3 puppies from this person and want to get an import that will suit the bloodlines of my puppies and obviously theirs. They are more established than I am and I couldn't use this dog for a few years. They are happy for the dog to have permanent residence with me because I show more often than them and I have less dogs to show. Neither of us personally know the breeder that we will import the dog from. I'm not sure if we will split costs for litters or what prefix will be used Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimm93 Posted January 5, 2016 Author Share Posted January 5, 2016 Thank you for your responses, it has given me a lot to think about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airedaler Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 I've had a couple of imported males in co ownership with the same people. All worked well. We had an very very simple verbal agreement but were open to any further discussion if and when matters arose. Basically our agreement was that the person the dog lived with bore the day to day cost of living expenses and basic vet fees.Rationale was that the dog was effectively that person's dog and they had the pleasure of living with him. I had one dog live with me and the co owner had the next one live with them. If there was any major vet fees we split the cost 50/50. We each paid half the cost of a stud fee to the other when we used him at stud ourselves.Stud fees from outside bitches were put into an account and shared at a specific time each year. Show entry fees came out of this money. Any prizes won were shared on an alternating basis but anything from a major win such as breed club speciality or a royal went to the groomer/handler. We had this agreement for about 20 years overall and were fortunate that we never fell out and are still very good friends today. Depending on where you are bringing the dog from you will not be able to bring him into Australia until her is at least 9 months so there may be the added expense from a breeder to run the dog on for several months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted January 5, 2016 Share Posted January 5, 2016 We are importing a male - we both want to use him in our breeding program. I have bought 3 puppies from this person and want to get an import that will suit the bloodlines of my puppies and obviously theirs. They are more established than I am and I couldn't use this dog for a few years. They are happy for the dog to have permanent residence with me because I show more often than them and I have less dogs to show. Neither of us personally know the breeder that we will import the dog from. I'm not sure if we will split costs for litters or what prefix will be used With a male you don't need a prefix. You need your own prefix for your own girls. The fact you don't know this says to me you are very new to breeding. I would be very careful if this is the case, that the more experienced person does not load the contract in their favour. Importing is very expensive and you don't want to lose several thousands of dollars and gave no dog to show for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonwoman Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 Hello, I am going to import a dog from overseas and will be importing it with another breeder on a co-ownership arrangement. So I will be owning half the puppy, paying half of the import costs and the dog will be permanently living with me so that I can show it. (I show dogs more regularly than the person I am improving the dog with). I have been trying to look up co-ownership agreements so that I have an idea of what I can expect to happen, but I am only finding information on a breeder selling a puppy and co-owning with new owners. Could someone please tell me what I should expect an agreement to look like and what should be included in it? Should the dog be insured and who should pay for insurance? Vet bills? Etc? Will be my first time importing a dog and first time co-owning. Thanks in advance. You might be better off importing semen from a proven, tested adult which has had success showing overseas.............breeders rarely export their really top stuff and why settle for less? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 You might be better off importing semen from a proven, tested adult which has had success showing overseas.............breeders rarely export their really top stuff and why settle for less? Importing semen is good advice. Once you have bred the imported dog to a couple of your bitches you are limited to where you can go in your breeding program. And unless he is truly an outstanding dog just how many outside services would he get? And of course the risk is he is sterile after you finally get him here. Things can go wrong with FS as well but your options are nearly limitless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimm93 Posted January 6, 2016 Author Share Posted January 6, 2016 I have been told that importing frozen semen in toy breeds can be a problem - that the semen isn't viable because of the amount - I have been told this by several toy dog breeders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted January 6, 2016 Share Posted January 6, 2016 I have been told that importing frozen semen in toy breeds can be a problem - that the semen isn't viable because of the amount - I have been told this by several toy dog breeders. I have heard this as well but not because of the amount and not just toys. You buy breeding units which are enough for a pregnancy all things going well. It might be worthwile speaking to a top repo vet on whether there is any truth that some breeds and FS don't mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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