Topic For Discussion - Keep It Nice, Folks ;)

[Willem]

I guess she switches into drive mode and you struggle to get her focus back ...ours does it when she sees the guinea pigs or birds or cats - like an arrow in a bow ready to be shot. I train the 'Take it - Leave it' with the flirt / flick pole ...the moving rag in front of her must be torture when she is high aroused, but she keeps the 'Stay' pretty good in the meanwhile ...then 'Take-it' and the hunt is on...'Leave-it' and she has to stop the hunt, which she does...the reward is another round or even a treat and another round.

I believe it is a very good method to make 'Leave-it' a powerful command even if the dog is high aroused - it won't transform her in a decoy dog for anxious dogs so.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I guess she switches into drive mode and you struggle to get her focus back

drive mode. a semantic / word definition thing. I've definitely lost her focus when that happens. But I may not have had her focus in the first place ie we're walking and sniffing, and absorbing the neighbourhood, and her focus shifts from the path to the dog over there.

We can have great "drive" and excitement around the agility course and she's completely focussed on me - tho I'd like her to be a little more focussed on where she's going and what she's gotta do to get there.

High drive, low drive, prey drive, play drive... none of that makes a lot of sense to me.

But I can definitely tell when she's got a wide focus - everything is distracting, and narrow focus, nothing can distract her. Definitely has a narrow focus when she fixes on the dog over there.

And I can tell between high arousal/excitement and low arousal (sleeping).

[Willem]

what about hard drive :D ?

classical conditioning: your dog sees another dog she can chase and that triggers a very high dopamine discharge in here brain...now your best treat is only second best as the reward is already happening in her brain - she doesn't need you anymore for getting rewarded and you lose your control. You need something to reward her which has a similar or even higher value (means even more dopamine) than the chase of this dog...obviously you can't use the other dog as the reward :D , but you can use the flirt / flick pole playing Leave-it-Take-it to imprint the 'Leave-it' command so she responds to it also if she is high aroused.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

hard eyed drive... definitely...

I can usually get her focus back if I notice and get her attention while she's still "thinking about it"... I think if she's thinking about it - it's not "classical conditioning" ie it's voluntary not involuntary. But again another semantic thing.

I haven't tried a flirt pole with her unless you count the water hose.

I'm not sure she wouldn't tear it to pieces the first time she catches it.

We've got good "leave it" (wait-geddit) for ball chases. But she only chases the ball with enthusiasm about three times and then she loses interest. Fetch takes a lot of work too.

What I would like to have stronger is random drops ie she's moving, I say "drop" and she drops and stays until I say go.

[Willem]

... But she only chases the ball with enthusiasm about three times and then she loses interest. Fetch takes a lot of work too.

...same here, can't say that she gets overexcited when we play ball or fetch...but a rag on a rope and she goes nuts. Maybe the flapping rag reminds her of a bird. Rag, rope and plastic pole - running the rope through the pole allows to accelerate the rag by pulling (a little bit like fly fishing)...cheap as chips and easy to replace if it breaks and it allows to train also the drops and sits in a controlled environment while she is high aroused.

I don't think it is voluntary - this stare phase is when the dopamine level increases ...if the level is not high enough you might be able to interrupt it before it bursts. Somewhere I read that the aim should be to train for 20 minutes while the dog is high aroused (you have to keep the first sessions shorter, 20 minutes is pretty long) - I guess it is to make sure you train her at peak level.

[huski]

If you have solid life skills the dog should understand to chill out and not to look for drive satisfaction when you are doing things like loose leash walking. But when training to that level, if you are waiting until the dog is in drive for something else you are too late - you have missed signals of arousal levels rising. You give yourself next to nothing to work with if you're waiting until the dogs drive is peaking. You're too late by then.

My dogs are trained in drive and can still recall and maintain obedience when highly aroused, but if the dog understands loose leash walking (or you know what to look for) they don't get to that point when you're practicing life skills. My dogs know when they are doing a drive related exercise and when they aren't because I made those commands and the off switch very strong.

Edited January 5, 2016 by huski

[corvus]

The first sign I get of trouble is that stiff posture death stare thing. She sees the dog and does that. Sometimes she does that and wags her tail, but that makes no difference to me. Ie wagging tail does not mean the other dog is going to have a good time if I let them greet.

Yeah, I teach my clients the fixed stare is bad. The longer the stare, the more likely they are to explode. If they go still or you see those worry wrinkles on their forehead or their ears go forward, priority one is more space.

So it would be great if I could train her do to something else. And it is context specific. She doesn't do it at the beach, or not nearly as often ie the dog has to be really persistent, charge up to her, get in her face and stay there at the beach, but at the park, it just has to be there minding its own business.

Setups definitely help. You can install the behavioural response in a controlled environment so you don't go too far.

Bizarrely - the more anxious scared dogs - she's much more likely to have a go at those than the happy confident dogs that keep their distance. And she's fine with all her friends (before my brother's poodle x).

Ha. That's interesting. That would lead me to hypothesise she's a bit worried herself. You should figure out what she's on about. Dogs like that I start by asking for sits and figuring out whether more distance reinforces it or less distance. It is not always clear. Some of these dogs get themselves into a bit of a state and they like dogs but they hate the frustration that comes with them.

[corvus]

what about hard drive :D ?

classical conditioning: your dog sees another dog she can chase and that triggers a very high dopamine discharge in here brain...now your best treat is only second best as the reward is already happening in her brain - she doesn't need you anymore for getting rewarded and you lose your control. You need something to reward her which has a similar or even higher value (means even more dopamine) than the chase of this dog...obviously you can't use the other dog as the reward :D , but you can use the flirt / flick pole playing Leave-it-Take-it to imprint the 'Leave-it' command so she responds to it also if she is high aroused.

Dopamine is heavily implicated in reward, but it's a bit more complicated than that, and even more heavily implicated in anticipation. The dopaminergic system is almost certainly involved, but it's involved with an awful lot of normal brain functioning. I pretty much cringe whenever dog people start talking about neuroscience. It's incredibly complicated. A simpler and more observable explanation is just that she gets aroused by dogs. Arousal narrows focus, so the higher it gets, the less a dog can even detect peripheral stimuli like food or a verbal cue. If a dog is able to process competing stimuli, you don't have to have a reward that is better than the environmental reward. You just need a conditioned signal for reward. It's largely down to practice. Practice calming themselves, practice switching between reward types, practice building behaviours to fluency so the dog responds when highly aroused or distracted, practice thinking through their arousal. Leslie McDevitt's Control Unleashed book deals with this kind of thing better than anyone else IMO.

FWIW, my Kivi learned his safety behaviour of a heel when HIGHLY aroused. Exclusively. Not remotely ideal, but it worked, and only took a few weeks. He would get hysterical when certain dogs behind fences barked at him. I just kept cueing a heel until he was able to do it. He evidently associated the heel with his decreasing arousal and increasing sense of safety, and started doing it as soon as he detected the dog rather than after he'd gone mental and I'd frog-marched him past. Arousal aids learning, but you have to pick the right consequence sometimes.

[Simply Grand]

Yes, Riley only has only ever reacted aggressively towards fearful, unsure younger dogs that immediately roll on their backs or try to get away from him. He also shows worried body language (leaning back, looking away, whale eye, paw lifts) when he find himself in a situation of being sniffed by a new dog that is more confident than him.

I believe that's why teaching him that when he is uncomfortable he can always move away and find his own space or get to me worked so much better than trying to suppress his aggression in close quarters to the other dog.

Now he can either approach or be approached by a new dog, have a sniff and then turns around of his own accord and comes back towards me looking very pleased with himself but it started at a much greater distance, where I would approach with him to a point where he focussed on the other dog and pricked his ears, then we'd stay there until he looked back at me (presumably because he was unsure what to do next) then he would get a big fuss as we moved away from the other dog.

[Simply Grand]

Oh I also meant to say, Saxon, my smallest dog, learned himself to put himself in between my feet whenever he feels really uncomfortable, like Corvus was saying. -R in the real world, where he discovered himself that the worry he felt from the other dog (or whatever it was) reduced when he was between my feet so he has continued that behaviour. I don't reward him for it, other than in that I allow him to do it and keep him safe when he does, although to be honest I can't think of many, if any, times I've had to actually ward off a threat once Saxon is with me.

[Willem]

FWIW, my Kivi learned his safety behaviour of a heel when HIGHLY aroused. Exclusively. Not remotely ideal, but it worked, and only took a few weeks. He would get hysterical when certain dogs behind fences barked at him. I just kept cueing a heel until he was able to do it. He evidently associated the heel with his decreasing arousal and increasing sense of safety, and started doing it as soon as he detected the dog rather than after he'd gone mental and I'd frog-marched him past. Arousal aids learning, but you have to pick the right consequence sometimes.

...isn't this a normal respectively pretty natural response?...creature is threatened and feels scared...creature looks for escape respectively protection via pack, den, mother, father, siblings...finds it...feels safer and calms down. Regarding this chain, what would have changed if you wouldn't have used the circumstances to teach him heel?...with your guidance he associated the heel as a method to stay close to you and that's all what he wanted. I fail to see why the heeling itself should have increased his sense of safety?

ETA:..He evidently associated the heel with his decreasing arousal... he learned that the heel was the method to stay close to you and staying close was / is what calms him down, not the heel...?...

Edited January 5, 2016 by Willem

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

(snip)

Bizarrely - the more anxious scared dogs - she's much more likely to have a go at those than the happy confident dogs that keep their distance. And she's fine with all her friends (before my brother's poodle x).

Ha. That's interesting. That would lead me to hypothesise she's a bit worried herself. You should figure out what she's on about. Dogs like that I start by asking for sits and figuring out whether more distance reinforces it or less distance. It is not always clear. Some of these dogs get themselves into a bit of a state and they like dogs but they hate the frustration that comes with them.

Depends on the dog she's looking at.

The anxious ones - I think she's just being a bully.

The really big dogs (bigger than a golden retriever) - she doesn't do this at all - either goes up to them if she's off lead and does a grovel greeting (usually reserved for best friends), or ignores them.

the herding dogs that look like some of her friends and family - she really really wants to say hello and gets upset-frustrated when she's on lead and cannot. Like her not all of them like a new dog in their face even if it is upside down.

Either way it's easier to get her attention when we're further away. Sometimes it's frustrated greeting desire, so if she can calm down, reward by approach (if the other dog is ok with that). Sometimes it's "I'll get you before you get me" fear aggression but it's more like "you annoying bad dog, I will make you leave". Like killing a flea - has to be done.

This morning I got surprised because there was an off lead poodle cross that I know she doesn't like on the other side of the oval - all good but I stopped to pick up some rubbish and it came up behind me, and my dog drove it off. A lot of noise, no touching but it surprised the owners. At least they didn't yell at me. Their dog approached mine and mine "sorted it". Erm. Not what I want.

[Simply Grand]

Willem, the heeling itself didn't, it just so happened that heeling was the specific behaviour that Kivi learned was a behaviour he could CHOOSE to take control of his feelings in the situations where he felt distressed.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Simply Grand

[Simply Grand]

I call Riley a bully, specifically because he does pick on the vulnerable ones, which bullies do because they have low self confidence.

Anyone correct me if I'm wrong, but IME truly confident dogs just don't ever do the crawling approach, roll on back, "grovelling" thing.

Both Saxon and Quinn have been meeting new dogs regularly since they were 12 weeks old (now 6.5 and 4 yrs respectively), I would classify them both as confident dogs, Quinn to the point of assertiveness, and they have never greeted a dog with grovelling.

I have seen them use appeasement behaviours to avoid conflict with dogs that have previously or since gone on to show unreasonable aggression to other dogs, but I really think that the "grovelling" or "submitting" behaviour comes from a dog that isn't confident in their interactions with other dogs. Which isn't a bad thing at all, it's all part of dog behaviour, but I agree with Corvus that it is important to understand where our dog's are coming from.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Simply Grand

[Willem]

Willem, the heeling itself didn't, it just so happened that heeling was the specific behaviour that Kivi learned was a behaviour he could CHOOSE to take control of his feelings in the situations where he felt distressed.

sorry, but that sounds a little bit weird for me :) ...the natural response to the threat was that he wanted to stay close to safety which was only possible - due to Corvus interference - in heel. ...'a behaviour he could choose'... that would be a very conscious approach, I doubt that this was the case.

ETA: in other words: for Kivi the heel was the only door open to safety (to be close to Corvus)...of course he took it, and then he calmed down, not because he used this door, but because he could stay close to Corvus...

Edited January 5, 2016 by Willem

[Simply Grand]

Corvus taught Kivi a behaviour that she initiated when his level of perceived threat was low and demonstrated that if he kept up that behaviour throughout the time the threatening stimulus was present that he would remain safe. Kivi therefore learnt that if HE initiated that same behaviour he would remain safe in the presence of a threatening stimulus. So Kivi now makes the choice to initiate that behaviour when he feels a level of threat, because experience has shown him that he then remains safe.

I don't think Corvus was going to abandon Kivi if he didn't walk in heel position, she would let him close to her no matter what if that was all it took to make him feel safe and calm. But instead of relying on Kivi feeling scared then scrambling to get close to her however he could, she taught him an alternate specific behaviour he could choose to initiate when he felt he needed to.

I've done the same with Riley, his is jumping into my arms, and as I mentioned in a previous post, Saxon has taught himself his own, to put himself in between my feet.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Simply Grand

[Willem]

Corvus taught Kivi a behaviour that she initiated when his level of perceived threat was low and demonstrated that if he kept up that behaviour throughout the time the threatening stimulus was present that he would remain safe. Kivi therefore learnt that if HE initiated that same behaviour he would remain safe in the presence of a threatening stimulus. So Kivi now makes the choice to initiate that behaviour when he feels a level of threat, because experience has shown him that he then remains safe.

Lets assume that I walk Kivi instead of Corvus and Kive notices a thread...according to you Kivi will feel safe because he knows 'that he can control his fear' in heel...so he will just choose heeling to feel safe.

Well, I don't believe it...he won't feel safe because there is no Corvus...as long as I can't replace Corvus as the attachment figure the heeling means nothing....

[Simply Grand]

Corvus taught Kivi a behaviour that she initiated when his level of perceived threat was low and demonstrated that if he kept up that behaviour throughout the time the threatening stimulus was present that he would remain safe. Kivi therefore learnt that if HE initiated that same behaviour he would remain safe in the presence of a threatening stimulus. So Kivi now makes the choice to initiate that behaviour when he feels a level of threat, because experience has shown him that he then remains safe.

Lets assume that I walk Kivi instead of Corvus and Kive notices a thread...according to you Kivi will feel safe because he knows 'that he can control his fear' in heel...so he will just choose heeling to feel safe.

Well, I don't believe it...he won't feel safe because there is no Corvus...as long as I can't replace Corvus as the attachment figure the heeling means nothing....

You'd have to test it to know I guess. I know Saxon will put himself in between someone else's feet if he is worried and I am not close enough (see my edit to above post), he has demonstrated that plenty of times.

I know Riley is pretty quick to transfer his "jump into the arms" to feel safe to someone other than me, that person just doesn't always know to expect it.

[Willem]

You'd have to test it to know I guess. ...

that would be indeed interesting...can Kivi really associate the heel with safety or is it only a measure to stay close with Corvus?...hm...

Wrt your dogs: IMO it is a little bit different as the legs (or arms) provide somehow real protection, a little bit like hiding behind a tree or between trees so I'm not surprised that they find this safety also with other people, however there is no obvious safety in 'heel'.

[corvus]

Willem, the heeling itself didn't, it just so happened that heeling was the specific behaviour that Kivi learned was a behaviour he could CHOOSE to take control of his feelings in the situations where he felt distressed.

sorry, but that sounds a little bit weird for me :) ...the natural response to the threat was that he wanted to stay close to safety which was only possible - due to Corvus interference - in heel. ...'a behaviour he could choose'... that would be a very conscious approach, I doubt that this was the case.

ETA: in other words: for Kivi the heel was the only door open to safety (to be close to Corvus)...of course he took it, and then he calmed down, not because he used this door, but because he could stay close to Corvus...

Right. Not real sure how it's possible for an on leash dog to only achieve closeness via a heel.

Kivi is a super pro-social dog. I suspect he was so upset because the dogs were out of sight and inaccessible. His usual means of dealing with scary dogs (engage with them in a friendly manner) was not available to him. He was reacting by trying to rush to the fence and sniff the dog or see it. Lots of barking and bouncing. If he wanted to be close to me I wouldn't have had a problem. All I wanted was for him to stay close to me. Instead, he had no clue I was even there. He couldn't respond to the heel cue until he was calm enough to process it and act on it - i.e. once he was already starting to calm down after passing the dog.