Topic For Discussion - Keep It Nice, Folks ;)

[Willem]

I know what BAT is (Behaviour adjustment training) and LAT (look at that - and reward calm behaviour) is. But not CAT.

I think it's Constructional Aggression Treatment...

[Willem]

The crazy walking/doodling/random turns by handler, with no notice to dog, is even more powerful if followed up with a marker .. Yes or other normal verbal marker or click the moment the dog includes the handler in the picture .. i.e. probably still at end of lead, but head turn back to handler, and/or lead slackens. Dog is then rewarded preferably with food and words .. I usually say something like .."You noticed I was here .. that's clever" close to the handler, walk resumes .. rinse and repeat. We find in teaching people at dog club that it doesn't take dog and handler long to make the association. Handler timing is important, but coached through it, most get it pretty quickly. No major force involved .. handler just changes direction and keeps walking in new direction (we say to people .. as if you've forgotten something and have to go check).

I find it hard to reward her after every turn as it happens really in seconds or even fractions of a second...so to make it a positive reinforcement and giving here a treat it would interrupt the whole sequence...hence I did it without giving her a reward, not sure whether giving a reward after finishing a sequence would make a big difference as the task is that the dog keeps the focus on you, starts anticipating your next step very quickly to avoid the tension in the leash, and does this multiple times in a sequence. Totally agree with 'no major force involved'...the trick is to change the direction really very often in a very short time.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

so to make it a positive reinforcement and giving here a treat it would interrupt the whole sequence

"Good dog", pats and praise for the better turns would probably be enough... A reward doesn't always have to be a treat, just something the dog likes eg attention.

wrt crazy walking: I thought there is no reward for the dog involved at all - it is just less nuisance for the dog if she keeps the focus on where I want to go.

The idea is to prevent the dog gaining its own reward (self rewarding) by pulling where it wants to go eg pulling to the next best smell or dog greeting or to the park... the dog is not getting the reward that it is seeking by pulling. It's not about what treats you've got. If the dog cared about that in the moment - they'd be hanging round your treat pouch - not pulling.

Dogs have something called "opposition reflex" like teenagers. Ie if you pull on their collar - they pull in the opposite direction... and get really excited about it. Hence me holding my dog's collar when she's barking and lunging at another dog can sometimes be counter productive (she gets worse). Susan Garret uses a dog's opposition reflex to fire them up for running a course or to a person (ie restrained recalls) etc.

PS I personally hate the crazy walk training style. I don't think my dog needs to be totally focussed on me when we're walking to the park or along the beach... I just want a nice loose lead which doesn't require as much focus as tricky healing. We do tricky healing but I cue that.

Edited January 4, 2016 by Mrs Rusty Bucket

[corvus]

Nobody has talked about "escape training" or the -R quadrant much. I really hate that one. I've seen it used really well but your timing and training steps have to be perfect. I can't do it. What that involves is applying something unpleasant like pressure on a slip chain, or prong collar, and releasing it when the dog gets the behaviour right - to encourage (reinforce) that behaviour. You have to make it super easy for the dog to get the behaviour right especially at the start. If you ask too much - you freak the dog out. Mine would just shut down and freeze up and avoid me for days. So I learned real quick not to try to use that quadrant.

I use it in my classes for reactive dogs a fair bit. If you know what the dog wants, you can use it to teach them to be calm and use new coping skills instead of the volatile behaviour they usually use. A lot of them want to move away from the other dog. It's really cool when you can teach a dog a "forward" and "back/hold" behaviour and they start to tell you where they want to go and when. It makes rehab a lot easier when you're listening to them and they know it.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I use it in my classes for reactive dogs a fair bit.

That's how I saw it used... safety is with the trainer, pressure (from the collar) is released when the dog comes to the trainer. So the dog starts to see the trainer as a safe place. Despite the trainer being the one that applied the pressure in the first place. One part I do like is if the dog does decide to have a go at another dog while under this system - the pressure / aversive is self inflicted. But they were under aversive from the sight of the other dog anyway.

I'm having trouble imagining how the dog tells you where they want to go and when if they're under pressure and trying to "escape" to safety. It's not like my dog sitting at the back door and woofing to say wants out.

I guess the part I don't like about is that is that the trainer applies discomfort, and the reward comes from the release of the discomfort.

However - this is how a lot of herd (prey?) animals get trained. Eg horse - the rider puts pressure on, and the horse moves - so the pressure is eased. I guess the pressure can be pretty gentle and if a cue can be included, then no actual pressure need be applied but the animal will still anticipate it I guess.

Like always being frightened until you get home to safety and can lock the doors. I think that would be a stressful way to live (or train).

[Willem]

I use it in my classes for reactive dogs a fair bit.

That's how I saw it used... safety is with the trainer, pressure (from the collar) is released when the dog comes to the trainer. So the dog starts to see the trainer as a safe place. Despite the trainer being the one that applied the pressure in the first place. One part I do like is if the dog does decide to have a go at another dog while under this system - the pressure / aversive is self inflicted. But they were under aversive from the sight of the other dog anyway.

I'm having trouble imagining how the dog tells you where they want to go and when if they're under pressure and trying to "escape" to safety. It's not like my dog sitting at the back door and woofing to say wants out.

I guess the part I don't like about is that is that the trainer applies discomfort, and the reward comes from the release of the discomfort.

However - this is how a lot of herd (prey?) animals get trained. Eg horse - the rider puts pressure on, and the horse moves - so the pressure is eased. I guess the pressure can be pretty gentle and if a cue can be included, then no actual pressure need be applied but the animal will still anticipate it I guess.

Like always being frightened until you get home to safety and can lock the doors. I think that would be a stressful way to live (or train).

...again, my laymen brain fails to see the difference to crazy walking: I apply pressure by putting tension on the leash / collar (discomfort), tension gets released when the dog is following me...?...

[Simply Grand]

With the BAT that I've done with shelter dogs and with Riley the aim is to have the dog under very minimal discomfort, just enough to arouse them before you give them the opportunity to make a good choice and then move away from what is stressing them.

So we would start at a big distance with dog relaxed (on lead and flat collar) and move just close enough to the other dog for the subject dog to notice it, then they would usually do a bit of staring, ears forward etc and that's where we'd stop, wait for them to do something like avert their gaze a little or relax their ears, then a quick excited move away and behind something so the other dog is out of sight and the subject dog can then relax.

If you got to the point where the dog was starting to bark or lunge then you'd gone too close for where you were at with the training. As the dog started to learn that it could control moving away from what was stressing it with behaviour other than showing aggression it would start to feel more confident getting closer and closer because it felt that it could move away when it needed to and they could then learn that actually the other dog wasn't really a threat, whereas previously they would be too worked up whenever they got close to register that, plus of course the other dog is more likely to react back if the subject dog was barking and lunging that if it was calm.

So the idea is that the dog doesn't see the trainer as causing either the stress or the relief, it sees itself as having control of that.

[Simply Grand]

I know what BAT is (Behaviour adjustment training) and LAT (look at that - and reward calm behaviour) is. But not CAT.

I think it's Constructional Aggression Treatment...

Yes, that's CAT. I haven't used it and would be VERY careful with it if I ever did.

[Willem]

The crazy walking/doodling/random turns by handler, with no notice to dog, is even more powerful if followed up with a marker .. Yes or other normal verbal marker or click the moment the dog includes the handler in the picture .. i.e. probably still at end of lead, but head turn back to handler, and/or lead slackens. Dog is then rewarded preferably with food and words .. I usually say something like .."You noticed I was here .. that's clever" close to the handler, walk resumes .. rinse and repeat. We find in teaching people at dog club that it doesn't take dog and handler long to make the association. Handler timing is important, but coached through it, most get it pretty quickly. No major force involved .. handler just changes direction and keeps walking in new direction (we say to people .. as if you've forgotten something and have to go check).

I find it hard to reward her after every turn as it happens really in seconds or even fractions of a second...so to make it a positive reinforcement and giving here a treat it would interrupt the whole sequence...hence I did it without giving her a reward, not sure whether giving a reward after finishing a sequence would make a big difference as the task is that the dog keeps the focus on you, starts anticipating your next step very quickly to avoid the tension in the leash, and does this multiple times in a sequence. Totally agree with 'no major force involved'...the trick is to change the direction really very often in a very short time.

I contemplated a little bit more why crazy walking needs only little force if you get the timing right and it is actually pretty simple: if the dog is 1 m in front of you it can pull with all his power so just stopping the dog will require some strength. However, if you do the crazy walking the dog is / should be always at your side so you always have a much better leverage (similar like the leash attached to the front of a harness)...now you just have to make sure that the dog never gets in a positon (to far in front of you) that would compromise your leverage. Just before the dog gets into a better position for pulling you change direction again...and because the center of gravity is higher for bigger dogs the leverage works also here for you...

[Simply Grand]

My aim with my dogs though is that they always have half an eye on what I'm doing and where I'm going so I don't have to pull them anywhere. They also know the cue "this way" so when I say that they are aware that I am changing direction. So they follow the direction I'm going whether they are right next to me or at a distance, and on or off lead.

ETA I think we've built this because they know it is always worth keeping track of me because they never know when the opportunity to earn rewards, be it treats, praise, pats or whateve, will arise and they don't want to miss out.

Edited January 4, 2016 by Simply Grand

[corvus]

I use it in my classes for reactive dogs a fair bit.

That's how I saw it used... safety is with the trainer, pressure (from the collar) is released when the dog comes to the trainer. So the dog starts to see the trainer as a safe place. Despite the trainer being the one that applied the pressure in the first place. One part I do like is if the dog does decide to have a go at another dog while under this system - the pressure / aversive is self inflicted. But they were under aversive from the sight of the other dog anyway.

I don't use any leash pressure. We just teach them that some behaviours result in more distance, and some less distance (although that one only with frustrated greeters, really). And other behaviours result in treats/rubs/attention. Say they are looking at the other dog and on a loose leash are walking forwards. The handler walks forward with them until either I say close enough or the dog stops moving. We wait for the dog to disengage (e.g. looks away, sniffs the ground, looks at handler) and then say "Okay" and turn around and walk away. The dog willingly comes with most times. The dog learns they can look as much as they want if they are relaxed, and can go forward at a pace they are comfortable with, and if they want more space, they disengage or look to the handler. LAT works nicely in conjunction with this. It's basically BAT 1.0. The new BAT 2.0 doesn't use this negative reinforcement so much.

I guess the part I don't like about is that is that the trainer applies discomfort, and the reward comes from the release of the discomfort.

It can be very subtle. We go where they want to go. Usually they are interested in other dogs, and if they can approach slowly, or watch quietly, they will. The discomfort occurs when their interest intensifies and arousal goes up a bit. They may start to get a bit uncertain of themselves. If they have the option to disengage, get some distance, have a break, they will typically take it. Once they learn that their handler will respond to certain behaviours by giving them more space, they tend to start using that behaviour to ask for more space before they even show much sign of discomfort. It's just like when you're checking out a snake or something and you get a little closer and a little closer and then you want to back off and collect yourself before having another look. I'm not real concerned about ethics, here. The dogs are in control. As long as they are excited about coming to classes and are making steady improvements, I'm happy. They usually become a lot more responsive to their handlers as well, and the handlers get a lot better at recognising when their dog is uneasy and needs support. Everyone gets happier, and that's the whole point. Loose leash as much as possible and lots of stopping to see what the dog wants to do.

[Tassie]

so to make it a positive reinforcement and giving here a treat it would interrupt the whole sequence

"Good dog", pats and praise for the better turns would probably be enough... A reward doesn't always have to be a treat, just something the dog likes eg attention.

wrt crazy walking: I thought there is no reward for the dog involved at all - it is just less nuisance for the dog if she keeps the focus on where I want to go.

The idea is to prevent the dog gaining its own reward (self rewarding) by pulling where it wants to go eg pulling to the next best smell or dog greeting or to the park... the dog is not getting the reward that it is seeking by pulling. It's not about what treats you've got. If the dog cared about that in the moment - they'd be hanging round your treat pouch - not pulling.

Dogs have something called "opposition reflex" like teenagers. Ie if you pull on their collar - they pull in the opposite direction... and get really excited about it. Hence me holding my dog's collar when she's barking and lunging at another dog can sometimes be counter productive (she gets worse). Susan Garret uses a dog's opposition reflex to fire them up for running a course or to a person (ie restrained recalls) etc.

PS I personally hate the crazy walk training style. I don't think my dog needs to be totally focussed on me when we're walking to the park or along the beach... I just want a nice loose lead which doesn't require as much focus as tricky healing. We do tricky healing but I cue that.

Just to say Mrs RB, that doodling as we teach it is not about total focus on the handler .. if I want that I'll train specifically for that . as in heeling. It's more about marking the moment the dog stops pulling and the lead slackers .. which will happen as the dog looks back at the handler usually. It's setting the dog up for success and marking and rewarding the 'good' choices. Totally agree that the reward doesn't have to be treats .. although they're powerful in the early stages, as you know.

ETA for Willem ... I don't require my dogs to be by my side for LLW generally. My requirement in normal walking situations is just that their leads are not tight. It actually suits me to have the two of them in front of me.

Edited January 4, 2016 by Tassie

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

We just teach them that some behaviours result in more distance, and some less distance (although that one only with frustrated greeters, really). And other behaviours result in treats/rubs/attention. Say they are looking at the other dog and on a loose leash are walking forwards. The handler walks forward with them until either I say close enough or the dog stops moving. We wait for the dog to disengage (e.g. looks away, sniffs the ground, looks at handler) and then say "Okay" and turn around and walk away. The dog willingly comes with most times.

Hmm. So this is for a dog that is stressed by approaching another dog... So the pressure is approaching the other dog and the release is to move away if they provide the right behaviour? Where as when my dog is stressed by the sight of another dog - I move her away so she can calm down. If there is room to do that, if not - I just try to contain the outburst and praise any attention on me or calm behaviour.

My dog wouldn't stop moving - she'd drag me up to the other dog so she could scold it in its face... and try to drive it out of her park.

So she's more like the frustrated greeter/scolder. I only let her approach if she can be calm. And if she's shown aggressive behaviours I don't let her approach at all. Otherwise, she just does calm so she can do a surprise launch later. Tho sometimes, a 3 second greeting works ie we get in, sniff, get out, before her emotional bucket is overflowed. And then next time she can be better.

So for yours, the approach is aversive and the reward is retreat and release of the stress pressure. Ok my head is not coping with that. I would not be approaching if the dog was stressed if I could retreat. If I was trying to desensitise the dog - I would do training drills on the edge of their comfort zone... ie I'd go as close as I could until the dog shows a bit of stress, back off (no behaviour from dog required) and play training games just on the edge of that.

[Simply Grand]

Mrs RB the training has to be done in a very controlled situation though, like within a class environment so that there aren't extra stressors around and both the subject dog handler and the "other dog" handler know what is going on and can act accordingly. You also need a suitable "other dog". The aim is to find that distance where the subject dog is engaged enough to show some reaction but not so close they are already over threshold. You need to work through the training in the controlled environment before you can apply it in 'real life' successfully.

And the idea is for the DOG to learn to make the choice to remain calm and move away (or in the case of a frustrated greeter to remain calm no matter how close they get) because they see that it works for them, rather than seeing over-arousal/aggression/pulling/lunging/whatever and relying on the handler to make the decision to get them out of it as their only option

Edited January 4, 2016 by Simply Grand

[Two Best Dogs!]

Mrs RB the training has to be done in a very controlled situation though, like within a class environment so that there aren't extra stressors around and both the subject dog handler and the "other dog" handler know what is going on and can act accordingly. You also need a suitable "other dog". The aim is to find that distance where the subject dog is engaged enough to show some reaction but not so close they are already over threshold. You need to work through the training in the controlled environment before you can apply it in 'real life' successfully.

And the idea is for the DOG to learn to make the choice to remain calm and move away (or in the case of a frustrated greeter to remain calm no matter how close they get) because they see that it works for them, rather than seeing over-arousal/aggression/pulling/lunging/whatever and relying on the handler to make the decision to get them out of it as their only option

This sounds like the mini sessions I get in class sometimes (for teaching the dog not to bark at people to make them go away). She picks it up pretty quickly, the trainer walks past and the minute she starts barking he will stay there - but he won't move away cause that's what she wants. Instead, to make him go away she needs to stop barking and look at me - the second that happens I turn around and walk away. Her reward is us going away from the man + loads of verbal praise. We let her make the choice to look at me "to make him go away" then reward.

We also did this with dogs in the early stages of training and with the behavourist. If she wants something to "go away" all she's got to do is look at me calmly and generally I'll move on. Catches on to it pretty quickly, but harder to reinforce outside of controlled environments.

(I am popping in and popping out whenever I recognise something lol)

[Willem]

ETA for Willem ... I don't require my dogs to be by my side for LLW generally. My requirement in normal walking situations is just that their leads are not tight. It actually suits me to have the two of them in front of me.

the problem was that she pulled like an ox whether she was on my side, or meters ahead on a long leash and just ignored the tension in the leash no matter how much discomfort it caused. That's why I trained this crazy walking and that is where she has to be at my side which gives me the leverage so it doesn't become a tug of war, As you don't need much force (due to the leverage) she learned to respond to very little tension in the leash - I guess that's the big advantage over choke and prong collars where the dog learns (?) to respond only to high tensions ....it took approx. 1 week and she stopped this obsessive pulling.

When I walk her, most of the time I use a long leash and depending where we walk it is ok if she is a few meters ahead - as long as she doesn't pull. I use the long leash as it gives me more trainings opportunities while walking her (recall...leave it when I anticipate she goes in drive mode because she sees a bird etc.)

Edited January 4, 2016 by Willem

[huski]

The aim when loose leash walking isn't about position but teaching the dog to keep their arousal levels low. A dog that is pulling on the leash is generally over stimulated by the environment and is more likely to be reactive than a dog that is chilled out and is keeping their heart rate low.

[corvus]

We just teach them that some behaviours result in more distance, and some less distance (although that one only with frustrated greeters, really). And other behaviours result in treats/rubs/attention. Say they are looking at the other dog and on a loose leash are walking forwards. The handler walks forward with them until either I say close enough or the dog stops moving. We wait for the dog to disengage (e.g. looks away, sniffs the ground, looks at handler) and then say "Okay" and turn around and walk away. The dog willingly comes with most times.

Hmm. So this is for a dog that is stressed by approaching another dog... So the pressure is approaching the other dog and the release is to move away if they provide the right behaviour? Where as when my dog is stressed by the sight of another dog - I move her away so she can calm down. If there is room to do that, if not - I just try to contain the outburst and praise any attention on me or calm behaviour.

Not quite. At first there is no pressure, and the dog moves forward because they are seeking information. The pressure builds as they get closer or as they continue to watch, but if you keep the dog calm and move very slowly, they are better able to decide when the pressure is getting too intense for them. If they retreat then, we avoid a scene. Most of these dogs are conflicted, because they want to both approach and avoid. The goal is to help them achieve their goals, and that means letting them get information they would get from approaching, and also letting them get the safety and relief they want by avoiding. Approach and avoidance are in constant flux as the dog tries to meet opposing goals. BAT and similar methods bring structure and control to this process so the dog can stay calm while they both keep themselves safe and collect information. The safer they realise they are, the closer they choose to go. There's more going on than just R-, but that's what reinforces choices to disengage. If we created distance before the dog wanted it, the distance wouldn't be a good reinforcer.

My dog wouldn't stop moving - she'd drag me up to the other dog so she could scold it in its face... and try to drive it out of her park.

They usually learn pretty fast. :) We don't let them make stupid decisions. Direct, aroused approaches are going to go badly, and are usually a big part of why the dog has ended up reactive. They do it all the time and can't understand why dogs are always having a go at them, but the more it happens, the more tense they get at greetings, and the more they feel like they should probably tell the other dog off first.

So she's more like the frustrated greeter/scolder. I only let her approach if she can be calm. And if she's shown aggressive behaviours I don't let her approach at all. Otherwise, she just does calm so she can do a surprise launch later. Tho sometimes, a 3 second greeting works ie we get in, sniff, get out, before her emotional bucket is overflowed. And then next time she can be better.

The 3-second greeting is a good tool IMO. Some of these frustrated greeters are complicated creatures. They can get really ambivalent. I love working with them!

So for yours, the approach is aversive and the reward is retreat and release of the stress pressure. Ok my head is not coping with that. I would not be approaching if the dog was stressed if I could retreat. If I was trying to desensitise the dog - I would do training drills on the edge of their comfort zone... ie I'd go as close as I could until the dog shows a bit of stress, back off (no behaviour from dog required) and play training games just on the edge of that.

The approach is not aversive or the dog would not choose to do it. And some don't, so we do other things with them until they are ready for it. Some are never going to want to approach other dogs. Most of them do want to approach, though.Sometimes we can even reward behaviours with approach. As I said, the longer/closer they are with another dog, the more intense the stimulus gets. Sooner or later, it gets to be intense enough that they don't want to be there anymore. I want to give them a way to tell their handler when they are approaching that point so the handler can move them away BEFORE the dog feels like they need to do something dramatic. When they can communicate this to their owner, they will do it before the owner is likely to detect any signs of discomfort. But, the fact that the dog is performing the behaviour that gets them distance tells us that they want to escape from the stimulus. But this does not mean that they won't want to turn around and approach again 20 seconds later. I like this better than counter-conditioning precisely because you can let the dog tell you when to move away and when to come back again. A lot of their anxiety is around a lack of control, so if you give them control of their exposure, they tend to drive their own rehabilitation.

[corvus]

You can use the same principle to teach useful safety behaviours. One of my dogs has been taught to walk between my legs when another dog is worrying him. It puts him nice and close to me where I can best block that dog if it tries to come and interfere with him, and I can walk him away from the dog. He can tell me he is worried and wants to leave and at the same time he is out of the way and protected from the other dog. My other dog falls into a heel, complete with autosit, it turns out. Occasionally, we meet a scary dog that upsets both of them and I walk away with one between my legs and the other one wrapped around my knee. Our retreats are kind of slow, but the dogs are right by me, calm, and totally focused on me. It's the safest they can be, and they are much calmer and happier than they would have been before they learned safety behaviours. Negative reinforcement does not have to be bad. It can be very subtle and it can actually improve welfare.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Most of them do want to approach, though.Sometimes we can even reward behaviours with approach. As I said, the longer/closer they are with another dog, the more intense the stimulus gets. Sooner or later, it gets to be intense enough that they don't want to be there anymore. I want to give them a way to tell their handler when they are approaching that point so the handler can move them away BEFORE the dog feels like they need to do something dramatic.

This makes a lot of sense.

The first sign I get of trouble is that stiff posture death stare thing. She sees the dog and does that. Sometimes she does that and wags her tail, but that makes no difference to me. Ie wagging tail does not mean the other dog is going to have a good time if I let them greet.

So it would be great if I could train her do to something else. And it is context specific. She doesn't do it at the beach, or not nearly as often ie the dog has to be really persistent, charge up to her, get in her face and stay there at the beach, but at the park, it just has to be there minding its own business.

Bizarrely - the more anxious scared dogs - she's much more likely to have a go at those than the happy confident dogs that keep their distance. And she's fine with all her friends (before my brother's poodle x).

It doesn't help at the park that her small dog friends are always "driving off" bigger dogs and she wants to help. I'd like to hang out with the owners but they don't seem to understand how bad it is that they let their dogs do this. All the little dogs do it.