Question For Breeders

[sandgrubber]

While breeders don't directly breed to meet demand, it's hard to ignore it completely. When the price per puppy rises above $1500 and waiting lists are long and include a good many well-qualified buyers, it's tempting to have another litter. If you had trouble placing the last litter with decent homes, it's much more difficult to justify another litter.

Edited December 21, 2015 by sandgrubber

[Christina]

I think that the statement may be misinterpreted

Does it say registered pedigree breeders or just breeders ?

If it just says breeders they are meaning everyone who breeds dogs including pet cross bred dogs, puppy farm dogs, unregistered pure breed owners & registered pedigree breeders, who are the minority of the whole lot.

So if that is what they mean I don't blame them. Most of the dogs that end up in the pounds or are abandoned are not pedigrees with papers or even a definite breed. Though an rare few may be.

For your own breeding experience your aim should be to breed the best possible dogs, in every way, & ensure that there is demand & good homes for them.

If you check internet sales & what is available in your breed & then keep checking if they are still available that is a guide but you must check at all times of the year, a 3 week period only informs of that 3 weeks. Buyers having long waiting lists for a particular breed is an indication too but if its only 1 or 2 breeders that just may mean that they are popular & in demand.

Sometimes it can be down to experience as well. If you have one good entire girl & put her to stud & cannot find homes for your puppies you have the option of desexing her & even showing her as a neuter

There are many factors in regard to finding homes for puppies. How fussy are you ? Do you turn some people down ? Does your chosen breed need specific requirements that most people cannot fill ? How is your own personality when dealing with people ? How do your surroundings & environment present to visitors ? How are your puppies raised ? What obligations/support after sale will you fill ? And more.

So many variables to the actual statement the RSPCA made & so many variables to your question. There is no straight or clear simple reply.

Much to think about before you begin breeding generally.

[espinay2]

I've been reading up a lot lately about responsible breeding and one question i cant find the answer to is how a breeder can determine that the market requires dogs of their breed.

.......

how do you work out that its ok to breed your dog, I'm not talking about quality of breed here, only the requirement of the breeds demand.

A lot of this knowledge comes from being involved with a breed. You learn who the breeders are, you learn from breeders, you learn what the breed community is like and the various pressures being placed upon it. And you learn from other breeders what sort of demand there is for your breed and from who. That is the value of mentorship and spending some time in the breed 'community' before breeding.

A breeder can get an idea of the market from what interest they get from the public, even when they don't have puppies. Any kind of web presence makes it very clear if you have a 'market' for your breed. I have a website that clearly states no pups planned, but I get inquiries every week. I won't breed to meet that demand, but it's an indication of how popular the breed currently is, also a little scary

Agree very much with this too. I get a fair amount of enquiries through my website even though I have no puppies available. Mine is a less common breed and the amount of enquiries is reasonable for the type of dog it is (not for the average owner). A lot of them are unsuitable, but you can get a fairly good idea of what the demand is like. I should add that in my breed breeders have to a certain extent purposely not bred to 'demand' as they have seen the fate of other similar breeds which have become more popular. Our breed may be easy to place, but it is not as easy to place well. The number of puppies born has remained at around 50 per year on average for around 30 years. We have minimal to no rescue requirements (to our knowledge thee were no Pyrs in Australia requiring rescue in the last 12 months). This of course brings its own issues for the gene pool in this country (it is small in this country with only about 10 breeders on average, but is healthy worldwide) and breeders have to put in the effort and dollars to import dogs and semen with reasonable frequency if they want to contribute to the breed here.

I find it interesting you talk about the "vast majority" then start referring to Labrador Retrievers. One only needs look at the most of the UK terrier breeds to realise the "vast majority" are nowhere near as common/popular/in demand as you make out. In fact, many are probably on the endangered list: Dandie Dinmont, Sealyham, Glen of Imaal, Norfolk, Norwich, Skye just to name a few.

Given the small and shrinking gene pool of some breeds (there are less Skye Terriers in the world than there are Pandas) it may IMO be wise for some breeds to actively try and create greater demand to ensure the survival of their breeds. There is no one size fits all and each breed needs its own approach.

[Roova]

I notice lots of statements where people say the reason there are so many dogs in the pound is because of irresponsible breeders.

I believe the reason they're in the pound is 95% lack of effort in the person who purchased that dog. I would imagine no or little training, socialisation or research in to raising a good pet. I'm sure in the right hands every single one of those dogs would have make a fantastic pet.

If responsible breeders (especially those who test for genetic problems) did breed to demand we'd probably find less people buying from backyard breeders. Some breeds have such long waiting lists people lose interest in waiting (unless they're really keen).

Mind you if people could buy well bred purebred dogs 'quickly' maybe the same problem would happen with snap decisions being made?

I wish the council had some type of incentive for dog owners who attend puppy school, dog obedience or dog sports etc. Maybe even those who buy from breeders registered with their states dog body. Something to encourage those making an effort, and a way to educate those who don't have a clue. That should hopefully create better pets owners and therefore better pet dogs which don't get dumped when they get a bit 'naughty'.

[BlaznHotAussies]

Totally agree there Roova, with your statement about it not being the breeders but the people who dump the dogs. It's so true, and I think there needs to be either more help for people before they do give up a dog (maybe RSPCA should get off their butts and employ behaviourists to go into their home & help the family apply changes to help the dog. I don't follow Cesar Milan any more (I did for a while but have learned the error of my ways) but I do agree that a lot of the time wearing a dog out can make them a lot easier to live with!

On a similar note, I'm on a Pets for Sale page on Facebook and there are SO many people wanting crosses. I.e. Am Staff X, Maltese X, Poodle X (doodle breed), etc. It's weird. I even saw someone wanting a Golden Retriever or Golden Retriever X then if you suggest that they make sure the parents are hip & elbow scored & have all other relevant testing done, you get called a troll people just don't want to know and I don't know what can be done about it. For a lot of people, registered breeders seem to have such a bad rap and I don't know what caused it. Maybe I've only been around good registered breeders so I don't understand the bad rep?

[Breeding_Questions]

I believe the reason they're in the pound is 95% lack of effort in the person who purchased that dog. I would imagine no or little training, socialisation or research in to raising a good pet. I'm sure in the right hands every single one of those dogs would have make a fantastic pet.

Hear Hear

[mita]

I think there needs to be either more help for people before they do give up a dog (maybe RSPCA should get off their butts and employ behaviourists to go into their home & help the family apply changes to help the dog.

RSPCA Qld has a Behaviour Helpline run by behaviorists they employ. Long time back I used it to make contact re a dog problem & was impressed.

Since then, I've referred others to it. But I've sometimes had to reassure the person that it's not a judgmental service as if the RSPCA will call you a 'bad owner'. In fact, for all the expert knowledge & advice, the behaviorist I spoke to, had an attitude of a fellow dog owner who just tries to do their best.

[Roova]

That's pretty cool!

[BlaznHotAussies]

I think there needs to be either more help for people before they do give up a dog (maybe RSPCA should get off their butts and employ behaviourists to go into their home & help the family apply changes to help the dog.

RSPCA Qld has a Behaviour Helpline run by behaviorists they employ. Long time back I used it to make contact re a dog problem & was impressed.

Since then, I've referred others to it. But I've sometimes had to reassure the person that it's not a judgmental service as if the RSPCA will call you a 'bad owner'. In fact, for all the expert knowledge & advice, the behaviorist I spoke to, had an attitude of a fellow dog owner who just tries to do their best.

Wow, I had no idea!! That's so good!

[BDJ]

some great thoughts from Christina and Roova

I believe there is a huge difference between 'demand' and 'suitable homes' - in some breeds 'suitable homes' are easy to find, in others not so much - just because you can sell 10 (or 20) pups a year does not mean you should breed that many.

Whilst I understand the sentiment, I do think that the mantra of 'if they really want a XYZ from a reputable breeder, then they will be happy to wait 2 years for a puppy to be available' is limiting to the extreme, and does mean that some fantastic homes don't have an XYZ in their lives (with the resultant loss of great ambassadors for the breed being in the public domain). There are a lot of people who want a dog in their life at quite short notice (current dog passed away for whatever reason etc) and it is not always possible to start the search in advance.

I don't think that anyone on this forum believes that having a bitch pop out puppies every 6/8/12 months just 'cos she can is a great idea.

However, if someone has a well bred/great temperament/sound/health bitch and takes the time (and money) to match her with the right dog, raises the litter well, and finds SUITABLE homes (with after sale support etc) - and that litter is for the pet market to meet the 'demand', then I struggle to see why that is wrong.

I often read 'a responsible breeder should only has a litter when they need a pup themselves' - given many pedigreed dog breeders only have a small number of dogs themselves (if they show etc and the dogs are both 'pets' and 'showdogs', they usually have 4-10 dogs) using that theory they may only have a litter every 2 or 3 years.

Again, I am not promoting the 'have uterus - have babies' philosophy, but how can we expect 'Joe Public' to buy well-bred, health tested puppies if the 'demand' is not met?

[Simply Grand]

Having worked in a shelter I believe the people breeding the dogs do play a large role in the dogs ending up there. Breeding with no thought to who is going to take the puppies, breeding dogs that have problem behaviors and shouldn't be bred from (resulting in very young puppies showing behaviors like aggression and resource guarding), not providing early socialisation to puppies (as in before 6 weeks) resulting in pups that are fearful and not confident, selling off pups at 6 weeks old so they miss that critical doggy manners period with mum and littermates, having no regard for the health of either parents or puppies, selling to whoever pays the money without confirming Rey are a suitable home and know what they are in for, providing no advice on what to expect or how to deal with problem behaviors, and taking no responsibility for taking back the dogs they have bred if there are problems.

Yes, plenty of people buy a cute puppy on impulse with no idea of what they are in for, chuck it in the back yard with no training, stimulation or socialization and then find it too hard and surrender it, or just don't reclaim it when it escapes, but a responsible breeder (regardless of whether they are breeding pedigree dogs or not) greatly reduces the chance of that happening by addressing all the points I listed above.

[Simply Grand]

And (general comment not aimed at anyone in particular) people complain about other people who shouldn't be breeding producing all these dogs that end up in pounds and shelters but don't do anything about it, then when the RSPCA does at least put out something to try and discourage people breeding irresponsibly they dismiss then as having no idea about breeding as though they shouldn't be saying anything??

Maybe the RSPCA do know something about the side of it that isn't responsible ANKC breeders because they see the outcome of it every day (see my previous post).

[Rebanne]

And (general comment not aimed at anyone in particular) people complain about other people who shouldn't be breeding producing all these dogs that end up in pounds and shelters but don't do anything about it, then when the RSPCA does at least put out something to try and discourage people breeding irresponsibly they dismiss then as having no idea about breeding as though they shouldn't be saying anything??

Maybe the RSPCA do know something about the side of it that isn't responsible ANKC breeders because they see the outcome of it every day (see my previous post).

How could I, stop my neighbour next door, breeding his so called JR to his very undersized whippet bitch? How could I, stop my other neighbour, from breeding her undershot so called aussie bulldog to produce more of the same? I can't, nor can any other responisable breeder. Indeed no one can cause breeding dogs is not against the law.

[Stressmagnet]

And (general comment not aimed at anyone in particular) people complain about other people who shouldn't be breeding producing all these dogs that end up in pounds and shelters but don't do anything about it, then when the RSPCA does at least put out something to try and discourage people breeding irresponsibly they dismiss then as having no idea about breeding as though they shouldn't be saying anything??

Maybe the RSPCA do know something about the side of it that isn't responsible ANKC breeders because they see the outcome of it every day (see my previous post).

How could I, stop my neighbour next door, breeding his so called JR to his very undersized whippet bitch? How could I, stop my other neighbour, from breeding her undershot so called aussie bulldog to produce more of the same? I can't, nor can any other responisable breeder. Indeed no one can cause breeding dogs is not against the law.

People are, in general, f***ing idiots.

[sandgrubber]

IMO people are far too judgmental. If ethical breeders don't breed to meet demand, someone else will. In the USA we're down to <7% of all puppies born being registered by the AKC. It's estimated that 300,000 puppies and dogs are imported each year to meet demand. Most imports are commercially imported, and are not pedigree dogs. Shelters have a surplus of breeds/types that people don't want. But there are not enough dogs to meet demand for the sort of dogs people do want.

[angelsun]

Once again, the ethical registered breeders are left to deal with the misconception that they are the problem with overpopulation in the shelters. Its not even really the back yard breeders making puppies for profit...the fault lays on the people that purchase the dogs, get bored, move, have a child or generally will not take responsibility for that animal and dump it at the shelter. Because it's pretty easy to dump a dog when situations get challenging. It wasn't the breeder that dumped the dog, it was the owner. The ones that got tired, or inconvenienced by the animal and in todays disposable society, do what they would do with anything they get bored with.....dump it.

As for breeding, I breed for me first and the lucky ones that get the rest of the litter, get awesome dogs. If they find life gets challenging and the dog will suffer, it simply comes back to me. It's easy because I stand behind my dogs. I don't have a huge demand for my breed, although not sure why as once people have them, they tell me they can't imagine owning another breed. But even if demand picked up, I'd still only breed at the level I do, because it's a lot of work and can be a money losing situation with the small gene pool and costs of importing semen and dogs.

[oakway]

Once again, the ethical registered breeders are left to deal with the misconception that they are the problem with overpopulation in the shelters. Its not even really the back yard breeders making puppies for profit...the fault lays on the people that purchase the dogs, get bored, move, have a child or generally will not take responsibility for that animal and dump it at the shelter. Because it's pretty easy to dump a dog when situations get challenging. It wasn't the breeder that dumped the dog, it was the owner. The ones that got tired, or inconvenienced by the animal and in todays disposable society, do what they would do with anything they get bored with.....dump it.

As for breeding, I breed for me first and the lucky ones that get the rest of the litter, get awesome dogs. If they find life gets challenging and the dog will suffer, it simply comes back to me. It's easy because I stand behind my dogs. I don't have a huge demand for my breed, although not sure why as once people have them, they tell me they can't imagine owning another breed. But even if demand picked up, I'd still only breed at the level I do, because it's a lot of work and can be a money losing situation with the small gene pool and costs of importing semen and dogs.

+1.

[Salukifan]

And (general comment not aimed at anyone in particular) people complain about other people who shouldn't be breeding producing all these dogs that end up in pounds and shelters but don't do anything about it, then when the RSPCA does at least put out something to try and discourage people breeding irresponsibly they dismiss then as having no idea about breeding as though they shouldn't be saying anything??

Maybe the RSPCA do know something about the side of it that isn't responsible ANKC breeders because they see the outcome of it every day (see my previous post).

The problem with the RSPCAs messages is that they tend to tar all breeders with the same brush.

[WreckitWhippet]

I can determine that the market requires more ethical breeders producing pups, I know this because we turn away fantastic potential homes and they eventually source elsewhere if the wait is too long. As a collective across most breeds, the ANKC breeders do not produce enough puppies to meet the demand for even the most discerning of homes.

Great homes purchase pups from BYBers and dare I say it pet shops, because they simply cannot obtain one from a registered breeder. I seriously think a 6 months - 5 year wait for a pup is crazy and I can't blame them for going elsewhere.

[Agility Dogs]

Just wondering - do you think that like so many things where 'general' messages are issued to the wider audience it's the wrong people take notice of it? The people on here are more sensitive to the perceived criticism when in actual fact they ARE doing what the RSPCA suggests and breeding to demand for their dogs and their breed?

Is this thread going around and around in ever decreasing circles where everyone is really on the same page?