Dewclaws Posted December 20, 2015 Author Share Posted December 20, 2015 (edited) I imagine for any changes to happen it would need to come from the field breeders corner , it's seems the show breeders actually have the advantage because they are breeding a dog more 'stereotypical ' of the breed . While imagine an average puppy buyer would be shocked to contact a field lab breeder abd be told their pups are only suitable as a working dog and not a pet . The author of that article I posted seems to think the differences are just going to intensify . So it might naturally divide more as years go by . Edited December 20, 2015 by Dewclaws Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 But why would the field Lab breeders want to change They are doing what the breed was originally developed for. And while I don't know about Lab breeding programs, but many breeders in other breeds will bring in dogs or semen from overseas to introduce new dogs into their breeding program. This wouldn't be possible if they changed the name since worldwide they are known as Labrador Retrievers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dewclaws Posted December 20, 2015 Author Share Posted December 20, 2015 Did you read the article I posted ? Field labradors have much higher drives than the original standard . This why they are only suitable for certain owners . Surely it's in their interest to distinguish this from other labradors ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 The standard makes no mention of drive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRG Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 I think you will find that the "standard" has also been changed over the years and , if you were to look at the original standards produced in the early days of dog showing (ie late 1800's - early 1900's), that the working dog of today fits that standard better than the modern show dog. This is certainly true of the ESS and I suspect it is also true of the other breeds mentioned. So - who should change name? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dewclaws Posted December 20, 2015 Author Share Posted December 20, 2015 (edited) Looking at the Belgian shepherd dog in dogz online breed index seems to be 4 sub types . The Scottish, Westie and cairn all had a commen ancestor . Why is the idea of a 'sub' labrador type so strange ? in the last 150 years so many many breeds were developed , most a sub breed from another breed or breeds . There seems to be so much drama and offense now when the idea of a new breed is mentioned ? I don't understand why . The idea that labradors would develop in to a different direction seems very natural for me . Edited December 20, 2015 by Dewclaws Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 Looking at the Belgian shepherd dog in dogz online breed index seems to be 4 sub types . The Scottish, Westie and cairn all had a commen ancestor . Why is the idea of a 'sub' labrador type so strange ? in the last 150 years so many many breeds were developed , most a sub breed from another breed or breeds . There seems to be so much drama and offense now when the idea of a new breed is mentioned ? I don't understand why . The idea that labradors would develop in to a different direction seems very natural for me . Belgians are separated on coat type and colour. And even within that there are working/show splits especially with the Malinois :) My understanding of westie and Cairn is again it was originally separated on colour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dewclaws Posted December 20, 2015 Author Share Posted December 20, 2015 Yes cairn and Westies originally separated in colour but they are significantly more differences now . A small hard coated terrier living in the Highlands of Scotland have been there for many hundreds of years . I remember reading that when the white swiss shepherd tried to get recognition it was a massive struggle with a lot of resistance from different quarters . It's strange it's so much more un accepting and controversial these says to develop a new breed . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 Yes the Swiss White Shepherd recognition sounded like a struggle. It was still a lot about registries - several Australian breeders who had been breeding white Shepherds with local lines had to stop and restart their whole breeding program and import new dogs and couldn't use their current dogs due to the nature of registration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casima Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 Hi Dewclaws, good on you for doing so much research into your chosen breed before bringing your new pup home. I don't know a lot about the other breeds mentioned so wont comment there, even knowledge on the different types of my own breed, Border Collies, is quite limited. There are many types of Border Collies in Australia both within the ANKC or on a working registry or unregistered working farm dogs, ANKC doesn't recognise any working registries but many overseas kennel clubs do so dual registered dogs are often imported. Just including dogs which are being bred within the ANKC for a purpose by responsible experienced breeders to improve the breed towards their particuar ideal dog are - Show lines - Obedience lines - Herding lines - Agility and other athletic performance sport lines. They are all Border Collies, with long pedigrees from the same origin, but bred with different priorities eg comming as close to the breed standard as they can for showing or high levels of trainability or herding instinct or high drives and athleticism for sports or low drives with easy temperaments for great family pets, different things are important for different purposes. The various performance lines often contain imported sheepdog lines from the UK, Europe or USA and usually don't look very similar to the show line dogs and are generally much higher drive. The Border Collie breed standard in essence describes a well put together functional and athletic dog, this quote is from the beginning of the extended breed standard "It must be remembered that before anything else the Border Collie is a sheepdog. He is renowned as the world’s greatest sheepdog and would have to be the most widely used working dog around today" the herding and performance breders may not care too much about some of the cosmetic details described in the standard, but I would say most have learnt a fair bit about structure and how it applies to their choosen field and will be aiming to produce well put together puppies which will do well and minimise the chance of injury, in the spirit of the standard if not to the exact specifications described. I for one am glad that there is so much variety within my breed and am proud of the stunning show dogs sought after world wide, the champion obedience dogs, the amazing family pets, the super talented sheepdogs, the worlds top agility and flyball breed even if I only choose to have one of those types myself. I think it is important that they remain the one breed and arn't split, the larger gene pool and the greater choice for breeders to mix in traits they may have lost from another line within the breed is good for everyone, especially the dogs. So long as breeders are selling their puppies wisely to suitable homes only there shouldn't be a problem and it isn't hard to find out what the parents are like and what the breeder breeds for when purchasing a puppy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dewclaws Posted December 20, 2015 Author Share Posted December 20, 2015 Very interesting Casima. Do you think breeds of dogs that still traditionally 'work ' is going to always have much bigger variation in the type of dogs bred ? Do you then think show dogs are more a perfect example of their conformation than necessarily the best of their breed in these breeds? like German Shepherd, border collies , kelpies and labradors ? Do you think then the original purpose of 'show rings ' are then defunct ? I know these are controversial issues with in the dog world. I have been on some labrador forums and overall there seems to be much more hostility toward 'show type labradors than field type. General feeling they are are overweight lard arses that is losing its athletic origins . I don't know, I love the nice chunky labs . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moosmum Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 (edited) Hi Dewclaws, I think its easier if you think of a single breed, then think of all the different environments people have to make use of that breed in. Rather than splitting the breed , it might work better to include a "purpose" listing on a dogs pedigree. To encourage buyers to think more of the role their dog is expected to play in their lives, and breeders to set clear ideals of what they are trying to accomplish. I personaly dont like the idea of splitting breeds unless its absolutely needed, because each time you do that you are closing off more the potential gene pool. Edited December 20, 2015 by moosmum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 (edited) Very interesting Casima. Do you think breeds of dogs that still traditionally 'work ' is going to always have much bigger variation in the type of dogs bred ? Do you then think show dogs are more a perfect example of their conformation than necessarily the best of their breed in these breeds? like German Shepherd, border collies , kelpies and labradors ? Do you think then the original purpose of 'show rings ' are then defunct ? I know these are controversial issues with in the dog world. I have been on some labrador forums and overall there seems to be much more hostility toward 'show type labradors than field type. General feeling they are are overweight lard arses that is losing its athletic origins . I don't know, I love the nice chunky labs . I think the more environments and jobs a breed does, the more variation there will be. Looking at stockdogs such as Kelpies and BCs (since that is what I am more familiar with), there is a lot of variation in their job. Temperature variation where they work - influences coat type Type of terrain - open, flat, hilly, lots of trees or rocks, big paddocks, yards, shearing sheds - Influences structure and temperament type of stock - sheep - different breeds, cattle - different breeds, goats - different breeds, ducks and numbers of stock - influences temperament Then if you look at performance sports as well, this influences structure and temperament as well So the dog most suited to working in a cooler environment where it is open and flat on lots of 'light' sheep will be quite different to a dog most suited to working in a warmer environment in primarily closer yards on cattle. Looking at the larger stockworking dogs such as GSD and BSD there is also a change in their role to include protection/police/military and associated sports, which would also impact structure and temperament Edited December 20, 2015 by Kavik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LisaCC Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 1450590256[/url]' post='6774186']Hi Dewclaws, I think its easier if you think of a single breed, then think of all the different environments people have to make use of that breed in. Rather than splitting the breed , it might work better to include a "purpose" listing on a dogs pedigree. To encourage buyers to think more of the role their dog is expected to play in their lives, and breeders to set clear ideals of what they are trying to accomplish. I personaly dont like the idea of splitting breeds unless its absolutely needed, because each time you do that you are closing off more the potential gene pool. Exactly, ignoring everything else, why in the bloody hell would you want to diminish the gene pools of breeds even more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dewclaws Posted December 20, 2015 Author Share Posted December 20, 2015 But show labradors wouldn't be using field labs anyway ? I was reading a breeders of field labs Web site and he was saying currently 'american/field labs cu have more health issues due to intense selective breeding in the last couple of decades , . So who knows? Large genetic pools are only good if heaps of out breeding is happening . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 If I am ever in the market to invite another Labrador into my life, I would like a Tapua bred one... just sayin'... *grin* T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dewclaws Posted December 20, 2015 Author Share Posted December 20, 2015 (edited) Here is an American /field lab breeder talking about them and how inbreeding has effected them . https://rosewoodretrievers.wordpress.com/articles/american-labradors-vs-english-labradors/ Even so he wants AKC to differentiate them as different breeds . Edited December 20, 2015 by Dewclaws Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 Here are a couple of things that I think would make it difficult to make field Labs and show Labs different breeds. 1) Criteria - what would be the criteria that separates them? 2) Registration - this is where it gets really tricky. Simple to say, just make them different breeds, but it is tricky to do in terms of registration. You would want to make it a change of breed name across all countries main registrations, with a certain amount of time accepting registrations of dogs of the previous breed. Otherwise, you will find yourself stuck with a very limited gene pool (as you will not be able to use dogs of the breed they were previously called). This is the biggest drawback in my opinion. I doubt that Labrador breeders in all countries would want a split of breed name between show and working, and which one would get to keep the original name of Labrador Retriever? If you didn't get universal support, you wouldn't be able to use imported dogs to improve your bloodlines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dewclaws Posted December 20, 2015 Author Share Posted December 20, 2015 (edited) Surely they would just be called american labradors ? Just like American cocker spaniels or American staffordshire terrier Ect ? Or American field labrador? It's seems the two names English versus American gets used all the time anyway . Edited December 20, 2015 by Dewclaws Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted December 20, 2015 Share Posted December 20, 2015 (edited) You would still have the registration issue. And why should the working line dogs (who are still used for their original purpose) be the ones to change the name? Edited December 20, 2015 by Kavik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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