Field Labradors Versus Show Labradors .

[Dewclaws]

Hi all.

I am getting my long awaited for lab puppy in a couple of weeks . Naturally I have sort of became totally obsessed with the breed ,different training techniques Ect . What I can sort of expect . Many times it's mentioned different 'types of labradors ' the working lines and the show bred lines and a mixture in between . I am a bit befuddled how some very different pedigree dogs that come under the same breed standard can look and act so different yet still be considered the same .

For example the rough and smooth collies only difference in length of coat , yet on dogzonline they are listed as different breeds and not showed together .

Yet there is currently a puppy listing in labradors who say their working field labradors are not suitable as family pets , yet a listing just underneath say they breed labradors that make wonderful family pets which are show types .

Is in the main object with breeding is for consistency and to improve the breed? Yet it seems some labrador breeders have different objectives .

Why are some breed types divided due to more benign reasons (like coat length ) or size (three types of poodles ) yet a more significant difference like energy levels and drive plus a totally different appearance in body shape (field labs tend to be leaner , leggier and thinner faces ) don't get divided .

It would certainly make people finding a suitable lab for their needs easier .

I have been on some usa lab forums and there it's even more confusing . They call their working labs 'American labradors ' and there deffinetly seems to be bigger challenges for them finding a suitable pup .

Any opinions ?

[Kavik]

Ah, welcome to the world of breed types :laugh:

There are many breeds which have a working line/show line split, including the breeds I own and all of the breeds I am interested in :laugh:

The most important thing for someone looking for a puppy is to research the breeders, and get information on their lines and what their dogs are like so you can find the one best suited to you :)

[The Spotted Devil]

It's just horses for courses. People have differing requirements. Labs are popular in retrieving trials here and most of them are working or field lines - American lines, UK lines, Australian lines and any combination of those. They are typically very high drive and whilst some have a good "off" switch at home most require a lot of exercise and training. Any dog that is highly driven to retrieve makes a great drug detector dog but not so great Guide Dog!

We have the same situation in ESS - my field bred dogs are perfect for a very active or dog sports home but they come with a lot of "hunt" or desire to flush and retrieve birds or rabbits. Until you've seen them on game it's difficult to understand their instinct and persistence - it's not just chasing a few birds at the park.

ETA: A good breeder will help find the best fit for you. I could have sold my litter four times over but explained to several people that the pups were likely too much for their specific circumstances.

Edited December 20, 2015 by The Spotted Devil

[Dewclaws]

Out of curiosity though who decides when a breed is different enough to classified as a sub breed?

Some of the field bred labs I have seen look more similar to a pointer!

[Dewclaws]

This is my Labs grandfather

http://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/profile.asp?dog=53139

This is a field lab from a reputable breeder

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=black+field+labrador&oq=black+fiekd+labeador&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l2.8371j0j4&client=tablet-android-samsung&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#imgrc=jxcRtehcDxF47M%3A

They look like different breed!How can they go under the same standard without the standard being a farce ?

Edited December 20, 2015 by Dewclaws

[The Spotted Devil]

Out of curiosity though who decides when a breed is different enough to classified as a sub breed?

Some of the field bred labs I have seen look more similar to a pointer!

It's just a way of delineating types really - everyone has different opinions on which is the "best" - I think they all have their advantages and disadvantages. A lot of the American field labs being imported have excellent hip and elbow scores too. Live and let live I say. I saw taller ESS in the US because their cover is much heavier and higher yet I've had a couple of people from Ireland (where ESS are used a lot as working Gundogs) look at my dogs/pups and just rave about them. My friend (who now has one of my pups) has 2 show ESS as well....I love them for the dogs they are but they are certainly different - the coat and ears are the main physical features and they are probably a little more low key.

Edited December 20, 2015 by The Spotted Devil

[JulesP]

This is my Labs grandfather

http://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/profile.asp?dog=53139

This is a field lab from a reputable breeder

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=black+field+labrador&oq=black+fiekd+labeador&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l2.8371j0j4&client=tablet-android-samsung&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#imgrc=jxcRtehcDxF47M%3A

They look like different breed!How can they go under the same standard without the standard being a farce ?

The standard is a show standard for people that show dogs. People with working dogs often don't care about the show standard at all. Often the working dog came before the show standard too.

[Dewclaws]

Yes but if the registering under the same goverment body surely they should be following the same standard? It's just no physical difference , but temperament difference .

Aren't working border collies for example registered under a different government body ?

It's like so called 'silver labradors ' they need to be registered as chocolate labradors because it's not an approved colour (more likely a x breed ) yet they still register them as purebred dogs .

[The Spotted Devil]

But it works both ways - should all show dogs have to earn some sort of working title? Firstly it's impossible with some breeds and secondly not everyone wants to live with highly active dogs. Heaps of Border Collies compete in agility and flyball that wouldn't have a hope in the show ring - yet they are incredibly sound and highly competitive.

What you are missing I think is that all these dogs have traceable pedigrees within ANKC or equivalent registries. Just because folk have selected for different characteristics doesn't make them a different breed. In the USA they breed National Field Trial Champions to each other. You end up with dogs that mark very well and run amazing straight lines. Physical characteristics (apart from obvious things like hips and elbows) aren't as much of a consideration.

Edited December 20, 2015 by The Spotted Devil

[Dewclaws]

Hmm very interesting .

I guess though what I struggle with is what makes a dog a labrador? If two dogs (one field one show type ) have more differences than things in common are they really the same breed?

[The Spotted Devil]

I do understand the confusion and I'm not sure there is an answer. Even in Dalmatians the US and UK types are different - which comes down to interpretation of the standard and what people like, what judges will award. And it's not limited to dogs either - unless I find an old European style breeder of Burnese when the time comes I won't be getting another one.

In some ways I think it's a good thing genetically that there is such variation.

Edited December 20, 2015 by The Spotted Devil

[Kavik]

Yes but if the registering under the same goverment body surely they should be following the same standard? It's just no physical difference , but temperament difference .

Aren't working border collies for example registered under a different government body ?

It's like so called 'silver labradors ' they need to be registered as chocolate labradors because it's not an approved colour (more likely a x breed ) yet they still register them as purebred dogs .

Some working breeds have a different registry. Working Kelpies have their own registry (WKC - Working Kelpie Council), and have an open stud book. There are some which are dual registered ANKC and WKC but not very many. My WKC registered Kelpies can get on the Sporting Registry with ANKC for performance sports.

Border Collies are an interesting case. They have several registries (ANKC, ISDS, and a couple of others), and a lot of dogs have multiple registrations.

[Rebanne]

Hmm very interesting .

I guess though what I struggle with is what makes a dog a labrador? If two dogs (one field one show type ) have more differences than things in common are they really the same breed?

I know lab people who show and work their dogs. Just because they are show types does not mean they can't work.

[pepe001]

Like anything breeds evolve. As judges give award to dogs of certain looks then more breeders follow those looks. Google German Shepherd history to see how these show dogs evolved over time. But working line also evolved, although less in my opinion. As dogs of a certain type are better at the job they do then people breed to the dogs doing well and so the look evolves. But I think with both my breed, the German Shepherd Dog, and the lab this changes less with working lines as both breeds started out working dogs and form followed function so they are already shaped to suit the job. PLUS standards are interpreted differently as well. Both types thin they fit the standards better.

What makes a dog a certain breed - that would be its traceable bloodline. If a dog has a certain number of generations behind it (not sure the official number)that it is the breed. As long as the registered body considers it a breed. A lab of a different (but not recognised) colour is still a lab if its pedigree is traceable. BUT the example of a silver lab is not recognised as many people believe that other breeds were put in to achieve that colour.

[Redsonic]

Why are some breed types divided due to more benign reasons (like coat length ) or size (three types of poodles ) yet a more significant difference like energy levels and drive plus a totally different appearance in body shape (field labs tend to be leaner , leggier and thinner faces ) don't get divided.

(emphasis added)

This is a really good question/observation and it arises from one group of breeders following the breed standard which focuses chiefly on appearance, and another group focusing on performance, with less emphasis on appearance. Form follows function, so there will be differences in field lines depending on the type of retrieving and type of country the dogs are required to work in. Show lines will tend to differ over time depending on interpretation of breed standards of the day; i.e., what catches the judges' eye.

As for why there are three types of poodles and Labradors are still a unified breed; I think (I could be wrong) that it is because the performance breeders don't really care to create a new category and aren't agitating for this. They have less focus on show ring categories.

[Dewclaws]

I know thar Rebbane but there are registered lab breeders on dogzonline who will not sell to pet homes due to them being unsuitable . Ideally a lab should be able 'all rounder ' which luckily my pup is his nz bred father comes from both a working and showing breeder . Yet some lab breeders are producing dogs that more further removed from the standard and have so much drive that they need to work to be happy . They would be totally unsuitable for a guide dog as an example .

[pepe001]

I agree that some people both work and show but I doubt the show lab would ever win the top titles. Same as show GSD. Sure some can do tracking and protection but it would be a freak that did it all at a top level. That is why police and other users of working GSD don't use show lines now. They used to before good working bloodlines arrived from Germany in the 1980s. I had a showline retired police dog for a while. He was probably one of the last in Australia. One breed that I think still does both well is the Malamute. Maybe changed as I stopped being involved in sled dogs about 10 years ago. But some of the best malamute sled dogs in Australia were also champion show dogs. Actually another working versus show line dog is the Husky. Serious people use working line huskies to race and while showlines can still race and do it well. They will not (or rarely) win top races.

I think it is to be expected when breeders want different things out of their dogs.

[The Spotted Devil]

The ESS split about 100 years ago - they used to do field trials on one day, shows the next. Some preferred showing and some preferred hunting - what breeders selected as winning qualities changed depending on the sport. I don't think my ESS are capable of trotting to be honest - it's either RUN or SLEEP :laugh:

And by "working"...what does that mean really? Obedience? Agility? Retrieving trial? Retrieving Ability Test? Flyball? Duck hunting? Fetching a ball or a dummy or a dokken? It's not necessarily about titles but there are plenty of claims made about working ability that would not be what I look for.

[The Spotted Devil]

I know thar Rebbane but there are registered lab breeders on dogzonline who will not sell to pet homes due to them being unsuitable . Ideally a lab should be able 'all rounder ' which luckily my pup is his nz bred father comes from both a working and showing breeder . Yet some lab breeders are producing dogs that more further removed from the standard and have so much drive that they need to work to be happy . They would be totally unsuitable for a guide dog as an example .

But a Guide Dog is NOT the original purpose. Good on those breeders for saying their dogs are not suited to pet homes.

[JulesP]

I know thar Rebbane but there are registered lab breeders on dogzonline who will not sell to pet homes due to them being unsuitable . Ideally a lab should be able 'all rounder ' which luckily my pup is his nz bred father comes from both a working and showing breeder . Yet some lab breeders are producing dogs that more further removed from the standard and have so much drive that they need to work to be happy . They would be totally unsuitable for a guide dog as an example .

The standard doesn't say 'quiet dog suitable to be a guide dog or pet'.