Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 I can't find the video - it may have been part of a bbc documentary... This is a description of the experiment - where the dog may or may not have stolen a treat - the owner doesn't know... the dog shows the same behaviour when scolded - whether they were guilty or not. https://dogscience.wordpress.com/2012/03/06/is-the-guilty-look-your-dog-gives-you-real/ I think it's possible that dogs do feel bad when they do something you don't want (naughty) but it probably doesn't last very long - hence for training to be effective you have to implement the encouragement or discouragement - immediately. But they do make really powerful associations... which may have nothing to do with what they've done. My dog messes with her rugs when she's really upset and I'm not there. If I'm there she mostly doesn't. Except - she does like to dig a bed for herself in the couch sometimes (usually gets attention from me). She never does this when I'm out tho - she just sleeps on my end of the couch. Dogs making their bed - is the strangest looking behaviour... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 Dogs can connect that the presence of a destroyed/ moved object + owner= trouble. For this to happen they just need to have had the experience before. What they don't connect is their actual act of destroying it some time ago is what creates the trouble and that it could be avoided if they didn't destroy it! Not the same as guilt or remorse. Yup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dame Aussie Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 Dogs can connect that the presence of a destroyed/ moved object + owner= trouble. For this to happen they just need to have had the experience before. What they don't connect is their actual act of destroying it some time ago is what creates the trouble and that it could be avoided if they didn't destroy it! Not the same as guilt or remorse. Yup. Yeah this is how I'd explain it too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaznHotAussies Posted December 12, 2015 Share Posted December 12, 2015 That is really interesting!!! What a good way to explain it, I've never heard it that way :D Haha SG, I think you're totally right - any sadness is purely based on me being cranky (they get sad & try to make me feel better, stop being cute you ratbags, I'm grumpy) because as soon as their little goldfish brains forget I've just yelled at them they're bouncing around again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarbedWire Posted December 12, 2015 Author Share Posted December 12, 2015 The book 'Inside of a Dog' by Alexandra Horowitz is a really interesting read and I recommend it. She says that dogs do not have self awareness so cannot feel guilt and do not know right from wrong. They live in the moment and have evolved to live with people so they are expert at reading body language and to make sure they behave in a way that will ensure they get cared for and survive. They can even smell our emotions. They put on the so called 'guilty look' - which is actually a look of appeasement - when they think their owners are displeased with them not because they think they have done wrong. I am quite concerned about the present craze of showing shamed dogs on Facebook and elsewhere (I have just seen a 2016 calendar devoted to the subject) because I believe it creates anxious dogs by scolding dogs for something the dog does not understand and can lead to separation anxiety, a serious behavioural problem. Whenever I come home, even if my house has been turned upside down and some of my favourite possessions (books) are in shreds I make a point of being calm - after all my anger will not return the book to its original condition - because scolding the dog will only confuse her. She has no idea why I am upset. I just resolve that next time I will leave her where she cannot get to my books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*kirty* Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 Dogs can connect that the presence of a destroyed/ moved object + owner= trouble. For this to happen they just need to have had the experience before. What they don't connect is their actual act of destroying it some time ago is what creates the trouble and that it could be avoided if they didn't destroy it! Not the same as guilt or remorse. Yup. Yeah this is how I'd explain it too. Cool thanks, that it explains it. And also explains why he never stopped destroying things! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 their little goldfish brains forget I've just yelled at them they're bouncing around again Goldfish (and wild fish) and dogs are really good at remembering who feeds them and the sequences leading up to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted December 13, 2015 Share Posted December 13, 2015 (snip) I am quite concerned about the present craze of showing shamed dogs on Facebook and elsewhere (snip) I love the photos of a dog doing the guilty look amongst a photo of mayhem and destruction - but I don't assume the photos go with the dog being scolded. My dog does that look and I don't scold her for anything. Someone at the beach tried to scold their dog for nicking my dog's chuckitball and then they tried to say hello to my dog who wouldn't go near because of the scolding... My dog wasn't at all bothered about sharing the chuckitball - I do like to encourage her to share everything and she's really good at that. But she also nicks other dog's toys if she thinks they don't want them. Today at the beach - she "retrieved" Pele's new bumper toy, and then played the chase me game with another dog - and some of the looks on her face when she was trying to fire up the chase... It's that exact same look of mischief that small children get when they run off when the parent wants to go home/out. I don't think it's "guilty" or even "naughty" - it's more like "joy and mischief" combined. Nyah Nyah can't catch me - where does that come from? There's so much we don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheridan Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 My view is why does anyone care if I want to anthropomorphise my dogs? If I think my dog looks guilty then it's no one's business but mine. The academics can pull their heads in, particularly as down the track they're likely to change their minds, as academics have a wont to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 (edited) My view is why does anyone care if I want to anthropomorphise my dogs? If I think my dog looks guilty then it's no one's business but mine. The academics can pull their heads in, particularly as down the track they're likely to change their minds, as academics have a wont to do. Nothing wrong with a bit of anthropomorphising in my view! But - remembering that DOLers are not the average dog owner - many people use the "guilty look" to justify punishment. Dog becomes anxious, problem doesn't get solved, owner gets angry etc. I see a lot of this with regular pet owners!!! Off to try and pull my head in :D Edited December 15, 2015 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dame Aussie Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 My view is why does anyone care if I want to anthropomorphise my dogs? If I think my dog looks guilty then it's no one's business but mine. The academics can pull their heads in, particularly as down the track they're likely to change their minds, as academics have a wont to do. I don't care. I just hope that people don't punish their dogs thinking it's going to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 My view is why does anyone care if I want to anthropomorphise my dogs? If I think my dog looks guilty then it's no one's business but mine. The academics can pull their heads in, particularly as down the track they're likely to change their minds, as academics have a wont to do. Nothing wrong with a bit of anthropomorphising in my view! But - remembering that DOLers are not the average dog owner - many people use the "guilty look" to justify punishment. Dog becomes anxious, problem doesn't get solved, owner gets angry etc. I see a lot of this with regular pet owners!!! Off to try and pull my head in :D Yes. Plus I think it's interesting and useful to know when things are supported by research rather than just anecdotal evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaznHotAussies Posted December 15, 2015 Share Posted December 15, 2015 their little goldfish brains forget I've just yelled at them they're bouncing around again Goldfish (and wild fish) and dogs are really good at remembering who feeds them and the sequences leading up to that. I can't be facetious??? Seriously I make a light-hearted comment on the memory capacities of goldfish (which I'm well aware is basically a myth/disproven) but I find it amusing that they hold absolutely no grudges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted December 16, 2015 Share Posted December 16, 2015 I can't be facetious??? Sorry - I tend to take things literally, and then off to some logical extreme of the literal idea. I can't tell from what you write about gold fish what you know about how they think. Or sarcasm often doesn't come across right in written form - hence people putting "not" on the end of sarcastic sentences. I guess it could have been worse - you could have said blonde brains... (apologies to blondes). :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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