Dogs Don't Feel Guilt

[BarbedWire]

Susan Hazel claims that dogs don't feel guilt and she quotes research that Alexandra Horowitz has done that seems to debunk or at least question the popular notion that dogs act guilty and the Internet craze of showing photos of dogs looking supposedly guilty because of some misdemeanour.

http://www.sciencealert.com/dogs-may-look-ashamed-but-they-don-t-feel-guilt-experts-say?utm_source=Article&utm_medium=Website&utm_campaign=InArticleReadMore

Dogs may look ashamed, but they don’t feel guilt, experts say

Breaking news: naughty puppy not actually remorseful for eating slippers.

PETER DOCKRILL 24 AUG 2015

Dog shaming is a popular online trend. Heck, there’s a whole Tumblr devoted to it. But just because people enjoy taking photos of their pets in morally compromising positions after ‘naughty’ behaviour doesn’t mean the animals are necessarily remorseful for the transgression.

Quote from Horowitz's research:

“The problem is, the ‘guilty look’ is not what it seems. A dog may plaster his ears against his head, turn away, wag his tail low between his legs or just take off when accused of a misdeed. But in research I did where owners confronted dogs both guilty and innocent of eating a forbidden treat, I found one clear result: The ‘look’ happened most when dogs saw scolding, questioning or angry owners, whether the dog was guilty or not.” … The ‘guilty look’ would be better called the ‘submissive look’, as in, ‘Don’t punish me for whatever it is you think I did.’”

An interesting article and worth reading. Here is the link to Horowitz's research which was done in 2009 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0376635709001004

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I agree. I've seen video of experiments where the dog steals the treat, and where the lab assistant steals the treat and the owner doesn't know which but has to choose - and just that look of "did you do that?" is enough to bring on the "guilty look".

Of course when there's two dogs... and one looks guilty and the other doesn't - you've got a clear case of "the other dog told me to do it"... But the video shows - the look is more about the owner and how they react to things when they go wrong.

But one thing I think dogs might show is a version of embarrassment... eg if I interrupt my dog in the act of doing something I don't want like starting dinner without permission. She does the guilty look but she also doesn't try to steal the dinner again - for at least a week... Same with fence running and bouncing off... I go interrupt and put the collar on - and usually that's enough to give her the message that she might want to stop doing that.

And successfully faking her out on a start line stay... she does the - ears down oops guilty look you tricked me - at me... but then she gets pretty excited about the next run of the game - because "you can't fool me twice" look she gets.

I could not explain to my brother that his "French" dog did not feel guilty about raiding the sulo bins and making a mess, the dog was trying to calm him down because he knew my brother will be upset when he sees the mess. Ie mess directly connected to angry owner.

[Vehs]

Someone pood in the house the other day - was it the new additional or the old dog?

The new addition is stupid and greeted everyone like normal, the old dog stayed outside and "acted guilty" or was she just worried that something awful happened (pooing inside) and everyone would get the blame?

I still don't know who did it!!

I love reading dog shame posts LOL

[Willem]

hm,...I'm not convinced that they don't feel 'guilt'. Our BC is not allowed to play with and / or chew on the door mat from the study room in the backyard, and she knows this (she has enough other toys). Sometimes when I come into the garden I can see from her look that she did it again. No chance that she would have this 'look' because I'm angry or whatsoever, I even don't know that she played with it as I don't check it, but then her look gives it away.

Edited December 11, 2015 by Willem

[dragonwoman]

hm,...I'm not convinced that they don't feel 'guilt'. Our BC is not allowed to play with and / or chew on the door mat from the study room in the backyard, and she knows this (she has enough other toys). Sometimes when I come into the garden I can see from her look that she did it again. No chance that she would have this 'look' because I'm angry or whatsoever, I even don't know that she played with it as I don't check it, but then her look gives it away.

She has learnt from past experience that there is a consequence, watch carefully, she may show subtle similar signs whenever you walk in the door, you may just not be noticing, perhaps you have the doormat look whenever she has been left alone indoors?

[Willem]

hm,...I'm not convinced that they don't feel 'guilt'. Our BC is not allowed to play with and / or chew on the door mat from the study room in the backyard, and she knows this (she has enough other toys). Sometimes when I come into the garden I can see from her look that she did it again. No chance that she would have this 'look' because I'm angry or whatsoever, I even don't know that she played with it as I don't check it, but then her look gives it away.

She has learnt from past experience that there is a consequence, watch carefully, she may show subtle similar signs whenever you walk in the door, you may just not be noticing, perhaps you have the doormat look whenever she has been left alone indoors?

...no, she only shows the door mat look when she played with it; she is normally very exited when she sees one of the family no matter whether she was by herself for 5 minutes or for an hour, but when she shows me this 'look' I know I have to look for the door mat somewhere in the garden.

[_PL_]

Maybe not guilt as such.

More like the fleeting regret of getting caught out. :laugh:

[dragonwoman]

She has learnt from past experience that there is a consequence, watch carefully, she may show subtle similar signs whenever you walk in the door, you may just not be noticing, perhaps you have the doormat look whenever she has been left alone indoors?

...no, she only shows the door mat look when she played with it; she is normally very exited when she sees one of the family no matter whether she was by herself for 5 minutes or for an hour, but when she shows me this 'look' I know I have to look for the door mat somewhere in the garden.

I really meant YOU have the doormat look, not her..........just in case she has done it again...........just fleetingly

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I even don't know that she played with it as I don't check it, but then her look gives it away.

How do you know she played with it at all if you don't look? Do you see the look and then go check and see that the mat's been chewed? Or do you see the look and assume something but never look to check if it is that something?

If she knows the mat is chewed and rumpled up and you get upset when you see that - she's going to get the look in anticipation... Same as my brother's former dog and the bin.

Same deal if you always get angry when you take the dog to the beach... the dog is going to start getting the look as soon as you get near the beach... they're great at anticipating things. Just watch what happens when you start dinner prep or pick up the lead or your car keys or just before you see the chewed mat.

Way to test this might be to get someone else to rumple the mat, let the dog see - but nobody tells you.

[Dewclaws]

When humans feel guilt it's because we feel vulnerable . Vulnerable that we have gone against social expectations and fitting in with the 'human condition ' . Feeling vulnerable creates fear . This fear is not much different to what a dog feels . They feel fear that they have not met the expectations they need to meet to feel secure . Thus they are vulnerable .

Guilt and fear , displeasing their alfa .

Such a fine line dividing these emotions that it's a bit of impossible to say with surety that dogs don't feel guilt .

[BlaznHotAussies]

My bitch completely skips "guilt" and goes straight to "smile she'll laugh & forget about it" she gives me the cheeky Aussie smile and does a sweet little butt wiggle - any misdemeanour is quickly forgotten

[The Spotted Devil]

Fear - yes. Guilt - no.

[Simply Grand]

My bitch completely skips "guilt" and goes straight to "smile she'll laugh & forget about it" she gives me the cheeky Aussie smile and does a sweet little butt wiggle - any misdemeanour is quickly forgotten

Hahaha I was going to say the same about mine! I don't think Aussie Shepherds feel guilt in the slightest, ever

[Simply Grand]

Fear - yes. Guilt - no.

In seriousness though, yes. And like Mrs RB says, they are masters of association and will pick up on way more than we realise we are giving them.

ETA - or not necessarily even full on fear but discomfort that "my human's reaction is not, or has not in the past with similar cues, been relaxed and happy, what does this mean?" And therefore caution...

Edited December 11, 2015 by Simply Grand

[raineth]

When humans feel guilt it's because we feel vulnerable . Vulnerable that we have gone against social expectations and fitting in with the 'human condition ' . Feeling vulnerable creates fear . This fear is not much different to what a dog feels . They feel fear that they have not met the expectations they need to meet to feel secure . Thus they are vulnerable .

Guilt and fear , displeasing their alfa .

Such a fine line dividing these emotions that it's a bit of impossible to say with surety that dogs don't feel guilt .

It is possible because you can't feel guilty about a transgression you never made.

In these experiments they have a condition in which the dog doesn't transgress, yet they still show body language that their owners interpret at guilt. This body language would be better interpreted as appeasement gestures.

[*kirty*]

My old boy Champa used to hide if he had done something wrong. We would get home and he was nowhere to be found. If he was hiding we knew to look for something that had been destroyed. I don't know what you call that, but I believe dogs are capable of knowing when they have done the wrong thing before they get told off.

[Willem]

@ dragonwoman: sorry, misread it, no...I don't think I have the doormat look,...I will ask the one who needs to be obeyed to confirm :D

@ MRB: the study is a separate building in the backyard, so I have to leave the house and have to walk a few meters to get there. I don't expect the doormat from the study room missing, but when she (the dog) shows me this look instead of jumping on me I know she did something that is 'NO!' for her. She is most of the time in the garden circling the compounds with the guinea pigs, but when she hears someone coming she always comes to greet. She might indeed feel 'caught' as I move between house and study frequently and it is not that I found out hours later that she had a go.

[Cosmolo]

Dogs can connect that the presence of a destroyed/ moved object + owner= trouble. For this to happen they just need to have had the experience before. What they don't connect is their actual act of destroying it some time ago is what creates the trouble and that it could be avoided if they didn't destroy it! Not the same as guilt or remorse.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I don't expect the doormat from the study room missing, but when she (the dog) shows me this look instead of jumping on me I know she did something that is 'NO!' for her.

You definitely need to try the test.

get someone else to hide the doormat and show the dog - and see if you get the same look when you go out there. Get your helper to toss a coin to see when they will do it (more random), and for extra confirmation - make sure you don't see them before you check the mat in the study.

Eg you go out, helper tosses coin, doesn't touch mat (keeps record).

you check mat - as per usual - record results (look or no look).

Another time you go out, helper tosses coin - this time they hide the mat and show the dog. then they go out and don't come home until after you have checked the mat (and the dog). Do you get the look or not.

Try the experiment for a week. The helper has to write down if they moved the mat or not.

you have to write down if the mat was moved or not and what the dog's reaction was and what you think happened.

Otherwise - all you know is your dog has a strong association with you missing the mat and getting upset so offers appeasement calm down behaviours.

I will see if I can find video where the lab assistant nicks the treat not the dog... owners cannot tell cos they get the same look from the dog whether the dog nicked the treat or not.

And I don't know about you, but I have the exact same reaction to being scolded - whether I did something naughty or not. Mostly I get angry and upset. Other people might have different reactions but being scolded feels nasty - doesn't matter whether you deserved it or not.

[Willem]

I don't expect the doormat from the study room missing, but when she (the dog) shows me this look instead of jumping on me I know she did something that is 'NO!' for her.

You definitely need to try the test.

get someone else to hide the doormat and show the dog - and see if you get the same look when you go out there. Get your helper to toss a coin to see when they will do it (more random), and for extra confirmation - make sure you don't see them before you check the mat in the study.

Eg you go out, helper tosses coin, doesn't touch mat (keeps record).

you check mat - as per usual - record results (look or no look).

Another time you go out, helper tosses coin - this time they hide the mat and show the dog. then they go out and don't come home until after you have checked the mat (and the dog). Do you get the look or not.

Try the experiment for a week. The helper has to write down if they moved the mat or not.

you have to write down if the mat was moved or not and what the dog's reaction was and what you think happened.

Otherwise - all you know is your dog has a strong association with you missing the mat and getting upset so offers appeasement calm down behaviours.

I will see if I can find video where the lab assistant nicks the treat not the dog... owners cannot tell cos they get the same look from the dog whether the dog nicked the treat or not.

And I don't know about you, but I have the exact same reaction to being scolded - whether I did something naughty or not. Mostly I get angry and upset. Other people might have different reactions but being scolded feels nasty - doesn't matter whether you deserved it or not.

ok, I will try it out :) .