Let's Talk About Dog Fights

[huski]

Hierarchy among dogs is fluid, it can change all the time. Dogs with little or no rank or pack drive will still fight other dogs over resources. I prefer not to guess who might sit where, and instead focus on establishing clear boundaries and rules. My dogs aren't left to their own devices, they always know what behaviour I expect of them, and what they should be doing. Fighting with each other isn't on that list ;)

Edited November 30, 2015 by huski

[Vehs]

When we had the GSD and Malt x we were very aware of the size difference/level of damage and didn't have any scuffs at all.

Since we brought a little rescue shihtzu in with the Malt x and Dachshund x we've had scuffs between the Malt and Shihtzu - usually if the Malt backs himself literally into a corner when food is around and freaksout. We've had her 3 months now and they haven't occurred in the last month or so.. I think it was mostly due to her food issues and needing to get as much food as she could, she's a lot less food obsessed now she knows she gets fed regularly.

Even then the scuffs were all noise and a loud yell from me would stop it now they will play comfortably together chasing balls on the oval and even doing tug tug games.

The little Dachshund likes to think she's the mediator, it's very cute.

the one time I have been bitten was when I was visiting a friend with 4 dachshund and the two (both desexed?) btches were getting jealous as one was on one side of me and the other the other side and I petted one and not the other. I have NEVER seen anything like it, they just snapped and were uncontrollable and I know they have since rehomed one of them.

[Willem]

Fighting will occur when dogs want the same thing, which is why I manage my two entire bitches very carefully, they both have high value for the same resources. It's also why I can easily have my Beagle run with either of my Mals (they don't want the same things). I haven't had any problems with my three but I also have very clear rules and my dogs don't free run together 24/7, so they aren't in situations where they can learn to compete and fight over resources.

Hierarchy among dogs is fluid, it can change all the time. Dogs with little or no rank or pack drive will still fight other dogs over resources. I prefer not to guess who might sit where, and instead focus on establishing clear boundaries and rules. My dogs aren't left to their own devices, they always know what behaviour I expect of them, and what they should be doing. Fighting with each other isn't on that list ;)

considering that there is usually only one bitch in a pack allowed to reproduce I guess without 24/7 supervision you wouldn't be able to use both for breeding, so this is IMO a very unique scenario. For sure you have a lot of experience with your dogs, nerveless I doubt that the dogs' knowledge about your expectations would prevent them from fighting to sort out the rank if left for some time without supervision.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Willem

[huski]

considering that there is usually only one bitch in a pack allowed to reproduce I guess without 24/7 supervision you wouldn't be able to use both for breeding, so this is IMO a very unique scenario. For sure you have a lot of experience with your dogs, nerveless I doubt that the dogs' knowledge about your expectations would prevent them from fighting to sort out the rank if left for some time without supervision.

But that's what I mean when I say management is critical. If you left a group of dogs to their own devices I am sure there would be fighting. My dogs can be together with no problems, but I think it would be a bit silly to let them run loose together 24/7 and think there would never be any altercations. It's not 'their knowledge of my expectations' that stop them fighting, it is that when together they always know what they should be doing, as opposed to being left to make their own fun, so there is never an opportunity where they could start a fight.

Edited December 1, 2015 by huski

[Rebanne]

Fighting will occur when dogs want the same thing, which is why I manage my two entire bitches very carefully, they both have high value for the same resources. It's also why I can easily have my Beagle run with either of my Mals (they don't want the same things). I haven't had any problems with my three but I also have very clear rules and my dogs don't free run together 24/7, so they aren't in situations where they can learn to compete and fight over resources.

Hierarchy among dogs is fluid, it can change all the time. Dogs with little or no rank or pack drive will still fight other dogs over resources. I prefer not to guess who might sit where, and instead focus on establishing clear boundaries and rules. My dogs aren't left to their own devices, they always know what behaviour I expect of them, and what they should be doing. Fighting with each other isn't on that list ;)

considering that there is usually only one bitch in a pack allowed to reproduce I guess without 24/7 supervision you wouldn't be able to use both for breeding, so this is IMO a very unique scenario. For sure you have a lot of experience with your dogs, nerveless I doubt that the dogs' knowledge about your expectations would prevent them from fighting to sort out the rank if left for some time without supervision.

we are talking about dogs not wolves or other wild animals. And often in the wild the underlings do manage to breed; they might get killed for their efforts but they do breed. As for the rest well it's just dribble

[LisaCC]

Fighting will occur when dogs want the same thing, which is why I manage my two entire bitches very carefully, they both have high value for the same resources. It's also why I can easily have my Beagle run with either of my Mals (they don't want the same things). I haven't had any problems with my three but I also have very clear rules and my dogs don't free run together 24/7, so they aren't in situations where they can learn to compete and fight over resources.

Hierarchy among dogs is fluid, it can change all the time. Dogs with little or no rank or pack drive will still fight other dogs over resources. I prefer not to guess who might sit where, and instead focus on establishing clear boundaries and rules. My dogs aren't left to their own devices, they always know what behaviour I expect of them, and what they should be doing. Fighting with each other isn't on that list ;)

considering that there is usually only one bitch in a pack allowed to reproduce I guess without 24/7 supervision you wouldn't be able to use both for breeding, so this is IMO a very unique scenario. For sure you have a lot of experience with your dogs, nerveless I doubt that the dogs' knowledge about your expectations would prevent them from fighting to sort out the rank if left for some time without supervision.

we are talking about dogs not wolves or other wild animals. And often in the wild the underlings do manage to breed; they might get killed for their efforts but they do breed. As for the rest well it's just dribble

Thank you! The Domestic dog is not a wolf.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

where the fighting is about dogs trying to sort out the rank this is an interesting article...here a quote that sums it up in a nutshell: ..."Usually, the owner is the cause. It is over-simplistic to say this; but, the reality is that the average dog owner will often completely ignore his dogs’ social hierarchy and attempt to impose what he believes to be equitable. This leads to tension between the dogs, which then leads to aggression when the owner is present"...

I do think owners have significant influence, but I think it's a long bow to say they are usually the cause. They may usually be ineffective at spotting and dealing with an issue, but that's not the same thing.

I know what caused our last dust up and it happened when I was away on business. I think it's likely that it happened because I wasn't present and actively "interfering". Combine that with a change in dynamic resulting from a dog reaching maturity and realising that he doesn't have to put up with shit from one of the second tier males any more and it's dust up time. C'est la vie in a pack of 10, you have to pay attention if dogs are not under other management arrangements and one should not, in my view, just let them sort it out.

Edited December 1, 2015 by SkySoaringMagpie

[gillybob]

I nearly lost my 19 yr old when his two mates died on the same day, when I brought into my home Anna a desexed female and Cedro and entire male a few months later Gilly came back to life, it took a few months but we got him back and he now zooms with Cedro everyday. I have only had a small scuffle with Gilly and Cedro over a bone. I now give them a bone each and watch them eat it just in case. But I have to say Gilly is still boss and Cedro waits at our yard gate for him and they run to the house together. Anna just stands back and watches.

Cedro is past two now and all his hormones are there but he is still happy to be third, his mom is second.

[WreckitWhippet]

where the fighting is about dogs trying to sort out the rank this is an interesting article...here a quote that sums it up in a nutshell: ..."Usually, the owner is the cause. It is over-simplistic to say this; but, the reality is that the average dog owner will often completely ignore his dogs’ social hierarchy and attempt to impose what he believes to be equitable. This leads to tension between the dogs, which then leads to aggression when the owner is present"...

I do think owners have significant influence, but I think it's a long bow to say they are usually the cause. They may usually be ineffective at spotting and dealing with an issue, but that's not the same thing.

I know what caused our last dust up and it happened when I was away on business. I think it's likely that it happened because I wasn't present and actively "interfering". Combine that with a change in dynamic resulting from a dog reaching maturity and realising that he doesn't have to put up with shit from one of the second tier males any more and it's dust up time. C'est la vie in a pack of 10, you have to pay attention if dogs are not under other management arrangements and one should not, in my view, just let them sort it out.

My pack subject one of the others to some poor treatment when I went away in October.

I wasn't there to maintain the usual routine,including exercise , discipline and feeding and it basically went pear shaped while I was gone.

Whilst there wasn't a "fight" as such, there was significant picking on one of the pack, resulting in squealing and that dog being frighetened. The others now see him as a weak animal, where once he was confident.

It's a slow road to recovery and I'm not sure we are going to get back to the way it was,I think they dynamics have shifted.

I've only had two dog "fights" over the years and sometimes the pack has included as many as 13.

Apart from my boundaries,I believe that pack harmony can also be attributed to a couple of great bitches that lead with a firm but kind hand.

The two fights we have had were male on male. The first was an attack on an older dog by a younger one, over resources. The second was a male on male, the instigator had been attacked some weeks before and became quite reactive.

I've not had to deal with a bicth on bitch but know they can be deadly. I've seen it first hand.

[Rebanne]

Apart from my boundaries,I believe that pack harmony can also be attributed to a couple of great bitches that lead with a firm but kind hand.

Agree with this. First with the GSD's and now with the Greyhounds.

[Willem]

Fighting will occur when dogs want the same thing, which is why I manage my two entire bitches very carefully, they both have high value for the same resources. It's also why I can easily have my Beagle run with either of my Mals (they don't want the same things). I haven't had any problems with my three but I also have very clear rules and my dogs don't free run together 24/7, so they aren't in situations where they can learn to compete and fight over resources.

Hierarchy among dogs is fluid, it can change all the time. Dogs with little or no rank or pack drive will still fight other dogs over resources. I prefer not to guess who might sit where, and instead focus on establishing clear boundaries and rules. My dogs aren't left to their own devices, they always know what behaviour I expect of them, and what they should be doing. Fighting with each other isn't on that list ;)

considering that there is usually only one bitch in a pack allowed to reproduce I guess without 24/7 supervision you wouldn't be able to use both for breeding, so this is IMO a very unique scenario. For sure you have a lot of experience with your dogs, nerveless I doubt that the dogs' knowledge about your expectations would prevent them from fighting to sort out the rank if left for some time without supervision.

we are talking about dogs not wolves or other wild animals. And often in the wild the underlings do manage to breed; they might get killed for their efforts but they do breed. As for the rest well it's just dribble

Thank you! The Domestic dog is not a wolf.

There is very little genetic difference between a dog and a wolf, so little difference that actually nearly any domestic dog and a 'wild' wolf can interbreed. And how many kelpies have some dingo blood in their lines?...this thread is about dog fights, and most of those fights are somehow related to dogs' instincts which often are ignored by their owners.

[Kavik]

Not only is the domestic dog not a wolf (so much artificial selection for our breeds, they do not act like wolves! Wolf packs are family units/groups and are not usually friendly with random strange wolves they come across), a lot of the research on wolf packs was done on captive wolves thrown in together and now has been debunked.

[Salukifan]

There is very little genetic difference between a dog and a wolf, so little difference that actually nearly any domestic dog and a 'wild' wolf can interbreed. And how many kelpies have some dingo blood in their lines?...this thread is about dog fights, and most of those fights are somehow related to dogs' instincts which often are ignored by their owners.

There is very little difference genetically between a lion and a tiger. The species can interbreed.

This does not mean that their social behaviour is anywhere near the same.

We have selectively bred our canine companions over 10's of thousands of years to diminish some behaviours and to encourage others. They are still a territorial pack animal but personally I think comparisons with wolves are unhelpful at best and dangerous at worst.

[Katie P]

I have four dogs here and luckily only a few scuffles and no fights. 1 desexed male, 2 entire males and 1 entire female.

They all do very well under supervision, with only the oldest entire male cracking it at the younger one (due to excessive excitement, general youngster silliness- all noise and no actual contact), so I am careful to manage things so nothing escalates and intervene when needed. The desexed male is snarky with food, so nothing is ever left lying around.

Due to this, I separate when I am not home into pairs. I think management is better than cure. It is easy enough, and the older dogs are quite happy to get a break from the younger ones and snooze on the beds. I know the younger dog annoys the older ones so best just to not put them in a position where something might escalate.

I find it easier to introduce bitches into the pack, but would also not leave them alone with the pack without supervision. I find it very hard to have visiting entire males, with only the young entire male and bitch being accepting.

[corvus]

I do love it when "boundaries" and "rules" somehow override something as essential to being a dog as competition with conspecifics and conflict resolution. My two dogs have never done more than shout at each other, and it has nothing to do with how I manage them. They are just motivated to avoid confrontations, as many dogs blessedly are. They negotiate their way out of most confrontations before they even get started, because they have the opportunity to, and it helps that my older dog is a lover, not a fighter. He will bend over backwards to avoid a confrontation. As such, they are together 24/7 and often not supervised. I go out of my way to give them autonomy because it is good for their wellbeing. If I happened to have dogs that were not prepared to defer or compromise, the best boundaries and rules could do would be to structure resource-related situations so that there is more conditioning and less anxiety and uncertainty about access. It's important to acknowledge that dominance in dogs is best predicted by the dog that defers. In other words, a "weak" dog gives priority access to other dogs, and in that way, determines who is more dominant. If dogs are picking on a supposed weak member of the group, it is likely more complicated, e.g. that dog is unpredictable or disturbs the other dogs in some way, or other dogs are stressed out and redirecting on the safe target.

There was a video doing the rounds a month or two ago with a couple of wolves attacking a hunting dog in Sweden. The dog was wearing a GoPro, so you see a lot of the buildup to the attack and the attack itself. It's harrowing, but really highlights how far our dogs are from typical wolf behaviour (thank heavens). Wolves kill interlopers. The dog survived thanks to a protective vest, but was badly injured. Wolves are intensely good at conflict resolution within their own groups. Aggression is rare and highly ritualised in most cases. Dogs vary at conflict resolution, but are generally nowhere near as good at it.

[Cosmolo]

It's important to keep in mind that what happens when you are there can be vastly different to what happens when you are not there.

Breed, sex, status, resources, age, number of dogs, critical period socialisation all have a part to play in inter dog aggression- sometimes more so or just as much as the owners input.

Without trying to scare anyone- in some cases, it's all fine and they get along beautifully- until the day they don't. And you'd just want to hope that on the day they don't, you're there to intervene.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

It's important to keep in mind that what happens when you are there can be vastly different to what happens when you are not there.

Breed, sex, status, resources, age, number of dogs, critical period socialisation all have a part to play in inter dog aggression- sometimes more so or just as much as the owners input.

Without trying to scare anyone- in some cases, it's all fine and they get along beautifully- until the day they don't. And you'd just want to hope that on the day they don't, you're there to intervene.

[JulesP]

Apart from my boundaries,I believe that pack harmony can also be attributed to a couple of great bitches that lead with a firm but kind hand.

Agree with this. First with the GSD's and now with the Greyhounds.

Yes I've always had one of these too. And both girls were totally devoted to me in a walk through fire way, which I think also helps.

[Salukifan]

I do love it when "boundaries" and "rules" somehow override something as essential to being a dog as competition with conspecifics and conflict resolution. My two dogs have never done more than shout at each other , and it has nothing to do with how I manage them.

This is one of the reasons I specifically asked in my first post for the experiences of those who own more than two dogs. Anedotally no issues between two dogs is common. Triple that number and things can be very different, especially as dogs age or are introduced and when they are entire.

Boundaries and rules keep dogs safe in households where there is a pack and where you run breeds where dog to dog issues are not uncommon. "Being a dog" as you see it can mean maiming and killing other dogs. THAT is also "conflict resolution". Best not to forget that when reviewing the experiences of households outside your own. "Let them work it out" is not an option for many households any more than it is down the dog park.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Haredown Whippets

[Weasels]

Fighting will occur when dogs want the same thing, which is why I manage my two entire bitches very carefully, they both have high value for the same resources. It's also why I can easily have my Beagle run with either of my Mals (they don't want the same things). I haven't had any problems with my three but I also have very clear rules and my dogs don't free run together 24/7, so they aren't in situations where they can learn to compete and fight over resources.

Hierarchy among dogs is fluid, it can change all the time. Dogs with little or no rank or pack drive will still fight other dogs over resources. I prefer not to guess who might sit where, and instead focus on establishing clear boundaries and rules. My dogs aren't left to their own devices, they always know what behaviour I expect of them, and what they should be doing. Fighting with each other isn't on that list ;)

considering that there is usually only one bitch in a pack allowed to reproduce I guess without 24/7 supervision you wouldn't be able to use both for breeding, so this is IMO a very unique scenario. For sure you have a lot of experience with your dogs, nerveless I doubt that the dogs' knowledge about your expectations would prevent them from fighting to sort out the rank if left for some time without supervision.

That's generally only the case in low-resource environments. Give them enough food and water and it's on like donkey kong.