Not Something Often Seen

[Rebanne]

A dun fawn-

Edit, this dog is also fallow :D

Thanks for showing this pic Maddy, because it saved me embarassing myself by saying I had never seen a dun in a showbred greyhound.

eta and he threw several dun offspring.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Rebanne

[BarbedWire]

I didn't realise liver (brown) was rare in greyhounds! I thought with all this hoohaa that it must be a dilute of some sort :laugh:

brown ones must be slow

:laugh:

[Kirislin]

A dun fawn-

And this dog has another interesting thing that I only know in whippets is called "deer marked" it's that lovely pale underside it has. I have a friend with a deer marked whippet but she is a much paler fawn and you can hardly see the deer marking anymore.

[Maddy]

A dun fawn-

Edit, this dog is also fallow :D

Thanks for showing this pic Maddy, because it saved me embarassing myself by saying I had never seen a dun in a showbred greyhound.

eta and he threw several dun offspring.

Being an OS dog, I'd guess maybe they have a bit more dun floating around than we do. Importing is probably not as common in racing dogs as it is in showbred so I imagine we'll eventually see dun showies down here from imported dogs, sooner or later.

A dun fawn-

And this dog has another interesting thing that I only know in whippets is called "deer marked" it's that lovely pale underside it has. I have a friend with a deer marked whippet but she is a much paler fawn and you can hardly see the deer marking anymore.

I wonder if that means whippets also carry urajiro? It should be possible, seeing as that gene seems to have been present for quite some time in greyhounds. In theory, there should also be the possibility of dun, although in whips it may have already been lost.

[Kirislin]

I'll have to look up urajiro now. It sounds like a Japanese word.

[Kirislin]

A dun fawn-

Edit, this dog is also fallow :D

Thanks for showing this pic Maddy, because it saved me embarassing myself by saying I had never seen a dun in a showbred greyhound.

eta and he threw several dun offspring.

Being an OS dog, I'd guess maybe they have a bit more dun floating around than we do. Importing is probably not as common in racing dogs as it is in showbred so I imagine we'll eventually see dun showies down here from imported dogs, sooner or later.

A dun fawn-

And this dog has another interesting thing that I only know in whippets is called "deer marked" it's that lovely pale underside it has. I have a friend with a deer marked whippet but she is a much paler fawn and you can hardly see the deer marking anymore.

I wonder if that means whippets also carry urajiro? It should be possible, seeing as that gene seems to have been present for quite some time in greyhounds. In theory, there should also be the possibility of dun, although in whips it may have already been lost.

Scroll down and you will see the "deer" markings here. This is an old page now, perhaps discoveries have been made since, but I always love looking in here.

http://runswiftwhippets.net/Genetics/Genetics%20old.html

[Maddy]

I'll have to look up urajiro now. It sounds like a Japanese word.

Urajiro is the name given to that modifier for shibas. In greys it's fallow. From looking at the pictures in your link, deer seems to be the same thing. Interestingly, rabbits also carry something similar, called otter.

Also, while I was scrolling through, I noticed the bit about "cream" whippets. The author says the it's not "true" liver but liver nose and eye rims would suggest that it probably is. She notes cream dogs can produce black or blue pups and assumes from that that it masks those colours in cream dogs, which seems unlikely. More likely is that it's liver and modifies black to liver but if the other parent doesn't also carry liver, you get black (or possibly blue) pups, very much as you'd expect from that gene. The claim that cream dogs bred to fawns produced brindle pups also doesn't mean much because.. K is dominant to k^br (which would hide brindle) so assume the cream dog is Kk^br (which is black carrying the recessive brindle on the other side of the locus), mated to a fawn dog who is kk (non-black, non-brindle, this is lowest on the hierarchy).

So..

K k^br

k k

50% chance of black pups

50% chance of brindle pups

No new or unusual genes going on here, besides whatever lightens the pigment.

On the topic of pigment, I've seen several whippets who had fully pigmented (black) eye rims and noses but appeared almost white so I'd guess this modifying gene is not unique to these liver-nosed dogs. I'd assume it'd be something on the I locus and might be linked to b in whippets, which would explain why you'd see genetically black dogs with it but you'd never see a fully pigmented liver whippet without it (if that makes sense?).

[Leah82]

I'll have to look up urajiro now. It sounds like a Japanese word.

Urajiro is the name given to that modifier for shibas. In greys it's fallow. From looking at the pictures in your link, deer seems to be the same thing. Interestingly, rabbits also carry something similar, called otter.

Also, while I was scrolling through, I noticed the bit about "cream" whippets. The author says the it's not "true" liver but liver nose and eye rims would suggest that it probably is. She notes cream dogs can produce black or blue pups and assumes from that that it masks those colours in cream dogs, which seems unlikely. More likely is that it's liver and modifies black to liver but if the other parent doesn't also carry liver, you get black (or possibly blue) pups, very much as you'd expect from that gene. The claim that cream dogs bred to fawns produced brindle pups also doesn't mean much because.. K is dominant to k^br (which would hide brindle) so assume the cream dog is Kk^br (which is black carrying the recessive brindle on the other side of the locus), mated to a fawn dog who is kk (non-black, non-brindle, this is lowest on the hierarchy).

So..

K k^br

k k

50% chance of black pups

50% chance of brindle pups

No new or unusual genes going on here, besides whatever lightens the pigment.

On the topic of pigment, I've seen several whippets who had fully pigmented (black) eye rims and noses but appeared almost white so I'd guess this modifying gene is not unique to these liver-nosed dogs. I'd assume it'd be something on the I locus and might be linked to b in whippets, which would explain why you'd see genetically black dogs with it but you'd never see a fully pigmented liver whippet without it (if that makes sense?).

interestingly this website suggests dogs with the recessive red gene (ee) may have a lighter pigment in the nose and eye rim even though they have the black marker, this could be why they say in cream whippets it's not true liver

http://www.doggenetics.co.uk/masks.html

Although the recessive red allele does not directly affect the colour of the nose, eye rim, lip and nail pigment, it is common for this pigment to fade from black to grey or pink as a recessive red dog ages. This may well be another indicator that a dog is recessive red rather than sable - although as sables may also sometimes have poor pigment, it is not foolproof.

edit: here's a whole page on nose colour.... http://www.doggenetics.co.uk/noses.html

Edited December 1, 2015 by Leah82

[Maddy]

I'll have to look up urajiro now. It sounds like a Japanese word.

Urajiro is the name given to that modifier for shibas. In greys it's fallow. From looking at the pictures in your link, deer seems to be the same thing. Interestingly, rabbits also carry something similar, called otter.

Also, while I was scrolling through, I noticed the bit about "cream" whippets. The author says the it's not "true" liver but liver nose and eye rims would suggest that it probably is. She notes cream dogs can produce black or blue pups and assumes from that that it masks those colours in cream dogs, which seems unlikely. More likely is that it's liver and modifies black to liver but if the other parent doesn't also carry liver, you get black (or possibly blue) pups, very much as you'd expect from that gene. The claim that cream dogs bred to fawns produced brindle pups also doesn't mean much because.. K is dominant to k^br (which would hide brindle) so assume the cream dog is Kk^br (which is black carrying the recessive brindle on the other side of the locus), mated to a fawn dog who is kk (non-black, non-brindle, this is lowest on the hierarchy).

So..

K k^br

k k

50% chance of black pups

50% chance of brindle pups

No new or unusual genes going on here, besides whatever lightens the pigment.

On the topic of pigment, I've seen several whippets who had fully pigmented (black) eye rims and noses but appeared almost white so I'd guess this modifying gene is not unique to these liver-nosed dogs. I'd assume it'd be something on the I locus and might be linked to b in whippets, which would explain why you'd see genetically black dogs with it but you'd never see a fully pigmented liver whippet without it (if that makes sense?).

interestingly this website suggests dogs with the recessive red gene (ee) may have a lighter pigment in the nose and eye rim even though they have the black marker, this could be why they say in cream whippets it's not true liver

http://www.doggenetics.co.uk/masks.html

Although the recessive red allele does not directly affect the colour of the nose, eye rim, lip and nail pigment, it is common for this pigment to fade from black to grey or pink as a recessive red dog ages. This may well be another indicator that a dog is recessive red rather than sable - although as sables may also sometimes have poor pigment, it is not foolproof.

edit: here's a whole page on nose colour.... http://www.doggenetics.co.uk/noses.html

For that to be true in whippets, they'd have to carry recessive red. I've never seen a "red" greyhound or whippet who didn't also have black hairs, meaning even examples that look very "red" in pigment aren't r red, just sables.

[Leah82]

The 'E' locus is mentioned on the whippet page with it's recessive counter part 'e' although it's not clear how this would be represented

Typically cream or yellow (as seen in labs) would be a result of recessive red although it's hard to tell what locus determines the strength of the pigment, some point to the C locus while the dog genetics page suggests the existence of an I locus (for Intensity) although it doesn't say how it would be represented in strong reds vs creams

[Maddy]

The 'E' locus is mentioned on the whippet page with it's recessive counter part 'e' although it's not clear how this would be represented

Typically cream or yellow (as seen in labs) would be a result of recessive red although it's hard to tell what locus determines the strength of the pigment, some point to the C locus while the dog genetics page suggests the existence of an I locus (for Intensity) although it doesn't say how it would be represented in strong reds vs creams

But there's no mention of e being present in whippets or any evidence to suggest it does.

The author of the whippet page also makes some very basic mistakes in genetics so I'd not take any of it as gospel. The actual genes responsible for pigment intensity outside of ee haven't been proven (and may differ in certain breeds anyway) so it's really just speculation.

[Kirislin]

The 'E' locus is mentioned on the whippet page with it's recessive counter part 'e' although it's not clear how this would be represented

Typically cream or yellow (as seen in labs) would be a result of recessive red although it's hard to tell what locus determines the strength of the pigment, some point to the C locus while the dog genetics page suggests the existence of an I locus (for Intensity) although it doesn't say how it would be represented in strong reds vs creams

But there's no mention of e being present in whippets or any evidence to suggest it does.

The author of the whippet page also makes some very basic mistakes in genetics so I'd not take any of it as gospel. The actual genes responsible for pigment intensity outside of ee haven't been proven (and may differ in certain breeds anyway) so it's really just speculation.

Like I said, that page is pretty old now and I wouldn't be surprised if the maker (I dont know who that is) would love to get some comments and opinions. I always the impression she'd love some thoughts from others on the subject.

[Salukifan]

Was reading a paper on Whippet colour genetics the other day and it mentions "dun" in Greyhounds. According to the author, the colour seems to have originated in Australia.

She says that genetically "dun" greyhounds should be sables and if mated to red, could produce black. If they are indeed "liver", this colour is unknown in both Whippets and Greyhounds. You can draw your own conclusions about how it got into the breed.

Edited December 3, 2015 by Haredown Whippets

[Kirislin]

Was reading a paper on Whippet colour genetics the other day and it mentions "dun" in Greyhounds. According to the author, the colour seems to have originated in Australia.

She says that genetically "dun" greyhounds should be sables and if mated to red, could produce black. If they are indeed "liver", this colour is unknown in both Whippets and Greyhounds. You can draw your own conclusions about how it got into the breed.

No idea, but the dog is considered a pedigree because it's allowed to race here. I just posted it for interest, because it's so unusual, I thought people might like to see it.

found this

"Dun is an extremely rare colour, appearing in approximately

one in every 1500 to 2000 litters. It can range from a light blue fawn, through a rich

red fawn, up to a deep rich chocolate colour, with the dominating factor being a pink

to brown coloured nose leather. Many Dun coloured greyhounds in the past have

been listed and recorded as being Dark Fawn, Red Fawn or Red. They should never

be listed as a type of Fawn or Red as they are a colour apart. In addition, when fawn

is crossed with another fawn or brindle, black or blue coloured pups cannot issue from

such mating. However, when Dun is crossed with fawn or brindle, it is almost certain

that black coloured pups will issue from the mating. Research indicates that all

present day Dun coloured greyhounds will have a double cross of Rocket Jet.

"

Edited December 3, 2015 by Kirislin

[Kirislin]

How about these for an unusual and beautiful colour.

http://forum.greytalk.com/index.php/topic/304664-thread-about-interesting-greyhound-colours/?p=5641678

[Steph M]

How about these for an unusual and beautiful colour.

http://forum.greytalk.com/index.php/topic/304664-thread-about-interesting-greyhound-colours/?p=5641678

Oh wow! They look like little snowstorms!

[Kirislin]

Here's some reading about colour inheritance in greyhounds

http://www.galtd.org.au/industry/colour-inheritance-greyhound

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Your suggestion doesn't really make sense because what a colour is visually doesn't necessarily tell us what the dog is genetically

But it doesn't make sense to me when you use colour to refer to genes instead of the visual appearance of the dog.

There is a way to measure visual colour that is reliable and consistent - they use it to work out chemical compositions and motion of stars.

But dogs - the way they look - has nothing to do with the colour they are named. Maybe what the dogs are called should be called genetic-colour and they should have a visual colour as well - so when a red dog shows up at the show/track - it's red. Not light milk coffee brown or black or spotty.

[Kirislin]

Your suggestion doesn't really make sense because what a colour is visually doesn't necessarily tell us what the dog is genetically

But it doesn't make sense to me when you use colour to refer to genes instead of the visual appearance of the dog.

There is a way to measure visual colour that is reliable and consistent - they use it to work out chemical compositions and motion of stars.

But dogs - the way they look - has nothing to do with the colour they are named. Maybe what the dogs are called should be called genetic-colour and they should have a visual colour as well - so when a red dog shows up at the show/track - it's red. Not light milk coffee brown or black or spotty.

What does it mean when I agree with both of you? :laugh:

[Salukifan]

Your suggestion doesn't really make sense because what a colour is visually doesn't necessarily tell us what the dog is genetically

But it doesn't make sense to me when you use colour to refer to genes instead of the visual appearance of the dog.

That is because colour can be masked by other colour genes. What a dog is genetically dictates what colours it can pass on. What a dog is cosmetically can be different.

Most people interested in genetics are interested in inheritance.

Edited December 3, 2015 by Haredown Whippets