Not Something Often Seen

[melzawelza]

What a gorgeous dog.

[anniek]

This is a dun greyhound. I've seen at least one once before but not up close. This one's a rescue belonging to some friends. Thought it might be of some interest to dog lovers. It's a pretty rare colour.

Is that Stella & Ian's girl?

Yep :D

I have some pictures of her brother Bruno somewhere on back up. He is white and dun.

[anniek]

Bruno

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I think that linking colour names to genes - may in the end cause problems when some dogs with the gene don't look like the colour.

For me - it's fairly simple... ie certain colours have certain frequencies in the electro magnetic light waves...

So you can say red is EM frequency 400–484 THz and wavelength 620–750 nm ... and everyone who looks at EM light with those numbers, they're looking at red - whether they understand it the same way as I do or not.

It would be nice among dog breeds that allow many colours - to have a consistent naming system - so - in the case of racing greyhounds, if the dog is registered as "red" and someone shows up with a brown dog... they will check the dog's id.

[Maddy]

I think that linking colour names to genes - may in the end cause problems when some dogs with the gene don't look like the colour.

For me - it's fairly simple... ie certain colours have certain frequencies in the electro magnetic light waves...

So you can say red is EM frequency 400–484 THz and wavelength 620–750 nm ... and everyone who looks at EM light with those numbers, they're looking at red - whether they understand it the same way as I do or not.

It would be nice among dog breeds that allow many colours - to have a consistent naming system - so - in the case of racing greyhounds, if the dog is registered as "red" and someone shows up with a brown dog... they will check the dog's id.

Your suggestion doesn't really make sense because what a colour is visually doesn't necessarily tell us what the dog is genetically. A black dog could be K, it could be aa, it could even be a^t with masking heavy enough to obscure any tan. Knowing exactly what colour a dog appears to be, is really of no value, especially where the same gene is given several different names (red, red fawn, fawn, for example) for shades. Those "shades" are neither here nor there if those dogs all carry the same colour genes and getting rid of the outdated distinctions (where no real distinction exists) is the first step to tidying the whole mess up.

The purpose of naming by genetic colour is that it would make naming uniform and easier for people to understand. That's my opinion.

On the topic of greyhounds, colour recording for race presentation is essentially obsolete. All dogs presented to race are identified by ear brand and/or microchip at their vet check. DNA recording has also made it more or less obsolete in confirming accurate breeding records. Racing bred greyhounds are almost never bred for colour so there is no pressing need to know who is what. This might be different for conformation breeders who focus on certain colours but again, DNA would be the best method of ensuring you had exactly the genes you wanted.

[Kirislin]

I think that linking colour names to genes - may in the end cause problems when some dogs with the gene don't look like the colour.

For me - it's fairly simple... ie certain colours have certain frequencies in the electro magnetic light waves...

So you can say red is EM frequency 400–484 THz and wavelength 620–750 nm ... and everyone who looks at EM light with those numbers, they're looking at red - whether they understand it the same way as I do or not.

It would be nice among dog breeds that allow many colours - to have a consistent naming system - so - in the case of racing greyhounds, if the dog is registered as "red" and someone shows up with a brown dog... they will check the dog's id.

Your suggestion doesn't really make sense because what a colour is visually doesn't necessarily tell us what the dog is genetically. A black dog could be K, it could be aa, it could even be a^t with masking heavy enough to obscure any tan. Knowing exactly what colour a dog appears to be, is really of no value, especially where the same gene is given several different names (red, red fawn, fawn, for example) for shades. Those "shades" are neither here nor there if those dogs all carry the same colour genes and getting rid of the outdated distinctions (where no real distinction exists) is the first step to tidying the whole mess up.

The purpose of naming by genetic colour is that it would make naming uniform and easier for people to understand. That's my opinion.

On the topic of greyhounds, colour recording for race presentation is essentially obsolete. All dogs presented to race are identified by ear brand and/or microchip at their vet check. DNA recording has also made it more or less obsolete in confirming accurate breeding records. Racing bred greyhounds are almost never bred for colour so there is no pressing need to know who is what. This might be different for conformation breeders who focus on certain colours but again, DNA would be the best method of ensuring you had exactly the genes you wanted.

Wouldn't it be amazing if they also tested for colour when they collect DNA from greyhounds. I know they dont need it but it would be an incredible learning resource for colour in general wouldn't it.

Colour in IGs in really confusing right now if anyone's researching pedigrees. There are so many shades of fawn, so almost white and others appear almost black but the only description allowed on the pedigree is fawn.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Kirislin

[Rebanne]

Racing bred greyhounds are almost never bred for colour so there is no pressing need to know who is what. This might be different for conformation breeders who focus on certain colours but again, DNA would be the best method of ensuring you had exactly the genes you wanted.

Really? No comformation breeder I know breeds for colour. That's the last thing on their mind.

[Maddy]

Racing bred greyhounds are almost never bred for colour so there is no pressing need to know who is what. This might be different for conformation breeders who focus on certain colours but again, DNA would be the best method of ensuring you had exactly the genes you wanted.

Really? No comformation breeder I know breeds for colour. That's the last thing on their mind.

*cough* Blue staffords, etc *cough*

(Wasn't refering to show greyhound breeders there, if that's what you thought- just show breeders generally. And some do breed for colour)

Wouldn't it be amazing if they also tested for colour when they collect DNA from greyhounds. I know they dont need it but it would be an incredible learning resource for colour in general wouldn't it.

Colour in IGs in really confusing right now if anyone's researching pedigrees. There are so many shades of fawn, so almost white and others appear almost black but the only description allowed on the pedigree is fawn.

If they did, they'd be able to take steps to ensure we didn't lose dun as a colour. I'll be honest, I'm not a fan of dun but I'd hate to see it lost when preserving it is as simple as identifying any new lines (besides ones we already know about, like Rocket Jet) and then screening the carriers careful for the epilepsy/neurological blindness before setting up a breeding program, with a focus on diversity in sires to spread the gene evenly among not just the popular lines but also some of the more obscure (because we want to encourage breeding back out of lines). And then there's potential for better understanding of how pigment intensity is inherited and whether or not s is actually able to express partially from a single copy, as is currently suspected. I was recently looking back through some photos of foster dogs and noticed that there wasn't a single dog who didn't have white marking so greyhounds would be perfect for testing out how S works.

On the topic of genes, mandatory screening for certain health issues wouldn't go astray, either. The epilepsy/neuro blindness I mentioned above seems to be becoming more prevalent and can be traced back to a couple of VERY popular sires. I've had two dogs from the same sire (and different but related dam lines) with the condition and it's a terrible thing that is completely preventable: work out who carries it, restrict breeding amongst those lines until the genes concerned have been lost. Breeding for physical fitness is obviously very important but there also needs to be a focus on genetic fitness.

IGs don't come in brindle, do they? I was just looking at the breed standard and also noticed seal wasn't mentioned. Which reminds me of the speculation that greyhounds might also be capable of carrying seal, although from what I've seen, it's always been just kennel coat that doesn't return once the dog has been stripped out and changed to a better diet. I have met a (divine) little seal iggy before though and there was no doubt about her colour.

[Rebanne]

Racing bred greyhounds are almost never bred for colour so there is no pressing need to know who is what. This might be different for conformation breeders who focus on certain colours but again, DNA would be the best method of ensuring you had exactly the genes you wanted.

Really? No comformation breeder I know breeds for colour. That's the last thing on their mind.

*cough* Blue staffords, etc *cough*

(Wasn't refering to show greyhound breeders there, if that's what you thought- just show breeders generally. And some do breed for colour)

yes that is what I thought as it came straight after a sentence with racing greyhounds in it. My apologies for the misunderstanding.

[gapvic]

Forgive me if it has already been mentioned as I only quickly scanned this topic, but my understand of dun greyhounds is that it's not so much about the shade of red/brown/milo/whatever you want to call it/coat but also about the colour of the nose. In dun it will be liver, not black. We have only ever had two dun greyhounds come through GAP out of the nearly 8000 dogs we've had here, so it's quite rare :)

[Kavik]

What is dun genetically? Dilute brown?

[Leah82]

What is dun genetically? Dilute brown?

Just Liver, it occurs on the B locus, dogs either have the liver or black marker with black being the dominate, unless the dog is actually liver or black you'll be able to tell which marker they have based on their nose colour

BB - black

Bb - black (liver carrier)

bb - liver

Dilute black comes up blue and dilute liver is lilac or a pale greyish brown.

Dilute is also recessive so dilute livers are even more rare

[Kavik]

I didn't realise liver (brown) was rare in greyhounds! I thought with all this hoohaa that it must be a dilute of some sort :laugh:

[JulesP]

I didn't realise liver (brown) was rare in greyhounds! I thought with all this hoohaa that it must be a dilute of some sort :laugh:

brown ones must be slow

[Maddy]

Forgive me if it has already been mentioned as I only quickly scanned this topic, but my understand of dun greyhounds is that it's not so much about the shade of red/brown/milo/whatever you want to call it/coat but also about the colour of the nose. In dun it will be liver, not black. We have only ever had two dun greyhounds come through GAP out of the nearly 8000 dogs we've had here, so it's quite rare :)

Pretty much. Liver nose, liver dog. Slate nose, blue dog. Black nose, dog doesn't have double copy of liver or blue gene, although it may carry one. Back when I first got involved in greyhounds, dun was incredibly rare but with people figuring out who still carries the gene, they're popping up more often and with more variation in the other things they carry, such as brindle and parti. Give it time and eventually, we'll see an isabella greyhound.

yes that is what I thought as it came straight after a sentence with racing greyhounds in it. My apologies for the misunderstanding.

What I actually had in mind was a dachshund breeder who seems only to breed for the "rare" colours, pretty much the same old story as with staffords and a few other breeds with "rare" (or disqualifying) colours.

I didn't realise liver (brown) was rare in greyhounds! I thought with all this hoohaa that it must be a dilute of some sort

Once it gets itself spread back through the gene pool, we'll be up to our necks in dun greyhounds :p Blue is a good example of that as it's also a recessive. You could have a pile of black dogs and within that pile, a significant portion could be carriers for blue, which means the gene just needs to pair up to get a 25% chance per pup of being blue. In some ways, it's incredibly lucky that the dun gene wasn't lost and that with each roll of the genetic dice, it was passed down through a few lines until we finally started seeing pairs. And once you have pairs, those dogs can only pass on dun, which means even if bred to a BB dog, all pups will be Bb and breeding back to another dun will give you a 50% chance per pup of dun.

Edit- unless those dogs aren't K. In which case, you'd have dun sable (red or fawn or whatever you want to call it) or dun brindle. I've seen a few dun brindles around but I don't think I've ever seen a dun sable. A dun sable would appear as basically fawn but with liver nose, amber eyes and liver instead of black hairs through the coat.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Maddy

[Kirislin]

What is dun genetically? Dilute brown?

Just Liver, it occurs on the B locus, dogs either have the liver or black marker with black being the dominate, unless the dog is actually liver or black you'll be able to tell which marker they have based on their nose colour

BB - black

Bb - black (liver carrier)

bb - liver

Dilute black comes up blue and dilute liver is lilac or a pale greyish brown.

Dilute is also recessive so dilute livers are even more rare

Is that like a weimaraner colour? Because I'm sure I saw a greyhound at the Sandown races years ago that was that colour. I've never forgotten it. It was beautiful.

[Leah82]

I didn't realise liver (brown) was rare in greyhounds! I thought with all this hoohaa that it must be a dilute of some sort :laugh:

well if you can get dilute blacks and dominate livers in greyhounds then I guess you could get a dilute liver, google isn't giving me an example though :p

most of the dilute looking greys that aren't blue look more recessive red (ee) than dilute liver (bbdd)

[Leah82]

What is dun genetically? Dilute brown?

Just Liver, it occurs on the B locus, dogs either have the liver or black marker with black being the dominate, unless the dog is actually liver or black you'll be able to tell which marker they have based on their nose colour

BB - black

Bb - black (liver carrier)

bb - liver

Dilute black comes up blue and dilute liver is lilac or a pale greyish brown.

Dilute is also recessive so dilute livers are even more rare

Is that like a weimaraner colour? Because I'm sure I saw a greyhound at the Sandown races years ago that was that colour. I've never forgotten it. It was beautiful.

yup weims are dilute liver

[Maddy]

I didn't realise liver (brown) was rare in greyhounds! I thought with all this hoohaa that it must be a dilute of some sort :laugh:

well if you can get dilute blacks and dominate livers in greyhounds then I guess you could get a dilute liver, google isn't giving me an example though :p

most of the dilute looking greys that aren't blue look more recessive red (ee) than dilute liver (bbdd)

Liver is a recessive on a different locus so perfectly possible. I think the only reason we haven't yet seen one is because dun is still uncommon enough not to have paired up two dogs with the right genes. A greyhound that was K Bb Dd (black) bred to another with the same genes could produce isabella, even though both parents were black. It's just a matter of chance, unless those dogs were DNA colour tested and specifically selected.

[Maddy]

A dun fawn-

Edit, this dog is also fallow :D

edit-edit, so really, not actually dun fawn but dun fallow.

Also..

Dun fawn parti!

Edited December 1, 2015 by Maddy