Willem Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 ...collar grabbing, calm her down (yes, she calms down...but 5 minutes later she started again...), walking away, ignored her...stern look (definitely doesn't work)... some of the above stopped her for the moment doing it, what I want is that she doesn't start it at all. I also train her with the flirt pole...the 'take it - leave it' game...so this also seems to help and now a big 'NO' and 'LEAF IT' works in 99% of the scenarios when she gets overexcited. Ah - but a collar grab game used correctly does not ask her to calm down. It asks her to use self-control in an aroused state to get what she finds rewarding - i.e. the tug. Like my Springers who are WILD about birds and game - they will hold a rock solid sit stay with rabbits and birds right in front of them because they understand that's the surest way to be rewarded with a retrieve. My Em literally shakes from head to toe she's so excited but waits until she is given permission. ...that's why we do the flirt pole 'take it - leave it' game ...here she can bite and nibble and tug...but all on my terms and she follows now the 'LEAVE IT' command 100%; her parents are pure working / herding dogs and she has a very strong mouthing / nibbling instinct, not sure whether this is the same with your springers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Frustration isn't a bad thing, and IMO dogs need to learn to work through frustration. That being said, 9/10 when I see dogs biting handlers, jumping, barking at them etc it is a problem with their reward system. Your handling isn't quite right, the dog doesn't understand how to earn reward, you don't have a clear communication system, the dog sees you as stopping the fun rather than making the fun happen - these are all common reasons we might see this behaviour. I have the kind of dogs that force me to work through these problems by addressing the root cause rather than correcting the symptom - physically challenging them won't end in my favour. I have zero chance at physically overpowering them, so I control them by building a solid relationship and foundation in training where we have a clear communication system and we both have the same goals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) ...collar grabbing, calm her down (yes, she calms down...but 5 minutes later she started again...), walking away, ignored her...stern look (definitely doesn't work)... some of the above stopped her for the moment doing it, what I want is that she doesn't start it at all. I also train her with the flirt pole...the 'take it - leave it' game...so this also seems to help and now a big 'NO' and 'LEAF IT' works in 99% of the scenarios when she gets overexcited. Ah - but a collar grab game used correctly does not ask her to calm down. It asks her to use self-control in an aroused state to get what she finds rewarding - i.e. the tug. Like my Springers who are WILD about birds and game - they will hold a rock solid sit stay with rabbits and birds right in front of them because they understand that's the surest way to be rewarded with a retrieve. My Em literally shakes from head to toe she's so excited but waits until she is given permission. ...that's why we do the flirt pole 'take it - leave it' game ...here she can bite and nibble and tug...but all on my terms and she follows now the 'LEAVE IT' command 100%; her parents are pure working / herding dogs and she has a very strong mouthing / nibbling instinct, not sure whether this is the same with your springers... Nope, different from my Springers but they do other whacky stuff. And I do train with some VERY high drive BCs, Kelpies and their handlers (some of the best in the country) so I have pretty much seen it all. Plus my PhD is in dog behaviour and welfare so this is pretty much what I live and breathe. Edited November 25, 2015 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Yes I agree dogs need to work through frustration - we do lots of shaping to address that :) I do have to make sure my criteria is clear and that I don't bump it up too quickly :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 IYC Here is some recent video of our contact training Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Sheena My dog does some of the same things. I used to get bitten / nipped if I got lost on course and stopped without giving her anything to do (a drop down command would keep her happy - tho some agility people use this for punishment). She is a lot happier - less barking if I keep the cues up to her so she knows where she's going next. Ie if there is a jump and a sharp turn if I have one cue that means all that, like check check check... she's happy. If I talk to her in the tunnel so she knows where she's going after that helps... and if I keep talking, even if it's only to say "yes" when she gets stuff right - she keeps her big trap shut so she can hear. She gets really upset if I don't say anything like on the weaves (yes for every pole...) because she thinks she's got something wrong if I don't. Video will really show up when your signals are not clear and your cues are late or non existent and the places/reasons where he gets frustrated and loses it. And you're a new pairing so be patient, work on some of the foundation. Try to set up some frustration eg - try shaping an ear flick in front of his dinner... and then not-reward the barking... (put his dinner back in the fridge then try again later). experienced agility person recommending a clout - I think that's against the rules. I'd be offering one right back eg how would you like a good clout for really bad advice? Or dog training method - ignore like you never heard but avoid that person in future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 If I make a handler error in heel work Wiz's favourite way to vent at me is to nose punch me in the boob. :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 If I make a handler error in heel work Wiz's favourite way to vent at me is to nose punch me in the boob. :laugh: Oh dear! Gees they are funny! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 If I make a handler error in heel work Wiz's favourite way to vent at me is to nose punch me in the boob. :laugh: Oh dear! Gees they are funny! In a Schadenfraude kind of way :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 If I make a handler error in heel work Wiz's favourite way to vent at me is to nose punch me in the boob. :laugh: I knew there was a reason I like to keep my dog on the outside of my elbows... tho she usually gets me on the waist or ribs... if she was a little bit taller... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted November 25, 2015 Author Share Posted November 25, 2015 I don't do agility but to look at this from a simpler perspective - it sounds like he might see you as the Fun Police, someone who is stopping him from doing what he wants to do (running the course) rather than seeing listening to you as the way he gets access to reward. I see this a lot with handlers whose dogs have a higher value for obstacles than the rewards the handle has to offer. If he is running a course and you release him to reward will he stop what he is doing to get rewarded or will he keep going on the course? Huski....you have got it in one...that is exactly what I feel he is doing. He distance handles beautifully & I could pretty much do a novice course with him, just with me standing in the middle & directing him. But for some reason he doesn't like me getting in front of him as you have to do with a lot of these new moves required for Masters. That's why it feels like he is trying to herd me or slow me down. Willem, thanks for your advice..your input is much appreciated, however, I would never do anything that hurt him or made him fearful as that is one of the quickest ways of turning your dog off agility. The other quickest way to shut your previously fast dog down is to be continually correcting them on course ie..making him come back to do a missed jump or when you the handler lose your way on course, resulting in you stopping, dropping your shoulders & curse under your breath. That is why I am wanting to handle this problem with kid gloves, because I want him to control his excitement but without taking away any of his drive. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 @ The Spotted Devil:...I acknowledge that you have much more experience with dogs than I have and that I can learn a lot from people like you. Nevertheless I don't understand why 'finger in the throat' as a very! direct response when she tries to take my hand or fingers in here mouth is more punishment than closing the door of a crate (as shown in your link) when the dogs wants to come out?... I even doubt that she experiences the 'finger in the throat' as punishment, it is more 'eating a treat' that tastes terrible so the next time she doesn't take it in here mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Because finger in the throat is physically punishing her body with yours? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) @ The Spotted Devil:...I acknowledge that you have much more experience with dogs than I have and that I can learn a lot from people like you. Nevertheless I don't understand why 'finger in the throat' as a very! direct response when she tries to take my hand or fingers in here mouth is more punishment than closing the door of a crate (as shown in your link) when the dogs wants to come out?... I even doubt that she experiences the 'finger in the throat' as punishment, it is more 'eating a treat' that tastes terrible so the next time she doesn't take it in here mouth. Because closing the crate door has nothing to do with me controlling her per se. Notice I never told her to sit or stay or leave it. Just rewarded good choices. It's so so much easier and more effective teaching a dog what to DO rather than telling them what NOT to do :) I need extraordinary control under extremely high arousal at distances of up to 150m. These foundations give me the best chance. ETA: The other point is I am teaching this in a low arousal environment with moderate distractions. I now do similar training at agility seminars or trials where the distractions are higher. She's also learned that it's ok to fail. Nothing bad happens except you don't get the treat. And if you try again you may well get it right and then party time! Edited November 25, 2015 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 @ The Spotted Devil:...I acknowledge that you have much more experience with dogs than I have and that I can learn a lot from people like you. Nevertheless I don't understand why 'finger in the throat' as a very! direct response when she tries to take my hand or fingers in here mouth is more punishment than closing the door of a crate (as shown in your link) when the dogs wants to come out?... I even doubt that she experiences the 'finger in the throat' as punishment, it is more 'eating a treat' that tastes terrible so the next time she doesn't take it in here mouth. I think there is a lovely blurry line between reward and aversive, between "do something" and "stopping the self reinforcement" (don't do something).... I think it's mostly about intention - are you trying to teach your dog to do something "do let go" or don't do something - don't bite. It's a lot harder for dog to figure out "don't" and there is a small risk that you will cause problems when you want to put your finger down your dog's throat and he won't let you because that's what you trained. I do gently push my hand towards the back of my dog's mouth if she grabs a bit hard and doesn't instantly spit me out when I stop moving. Don't have to do that very often. Usually a freeze (of the grabbed bit) and a look is enough. But if I want to open her mouth and look around and poke my fingers in there - I can. Sometimes the dog doesn't make the right connection when you use an aversive. Ie how much trouble do they have with "no treat for that" when they're used to being rewarded? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 That's not a game. That's punishing a dog for feeling frustrated. There are plenty of better ways including teaching self-control during high arousal - tugging and collar grab games are very useful. Yip. I can't see this helping with an agility arousal problem either. Certainly not a game. Sheena - in the past I used to see what you're describing quite a bit with the high drive BC's in Vic. In all honesty I've seen it reduced a lot since people adopted H360 (I don't just mean training in it, but embedding it. It has been "here" for about 2 years now). The difference in dogs and handlers is astounding. Do you play "It's Yer Choice" with him too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Closing the crate door (or closing your fist around the food so they can't get it in IYC) is simply letting the dog know that that action will not get the reinforcement they want. Controlling the environment not the dog. There is certainly nothing in 'finger in the throat' that allows the dog to make choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted November 25, 2015 Author Share Posted November 25, 2015 Some interesting discussions coming into this thread What my dog is doing, you see a lot especially at trials. I had one woman in my beginners class who had a great dog, full of potential, but his one fault was that he would do this jumping up to nip thing. With her, I could see that part of the problem was because she was in the habit of treating him out of her hand (I prefer to play toss & catch or use a target) & the other was because she couldn't keep her arm still, which is a problem with a lot of beginners. Some excited dogs find the constantly moving arm going up & down too much of a temptation. Eventually, she pulled him from class & I could have cried as he was potentially the best dog in my class, but I think he had her frightened & she wasn't implimenting any of the suggestions I gave her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted November 25, 2015 Author Share Posted November 25, 2015 That's not a game. That's punishing a dog for feeling frustrated. There are plenty of better ways including teaching self-control during high arousal - tugging and collar grab games are very useful. Yip. I can't see this helping with an agility arousal problem either. Certainly not a game. Sheena - in the past I used to see what you're describing quite a bit with the high drive BC's in Vic. In all honesty I've seen it reduced a lot since people adopted H360 (I don't just mean training in it, but embedding it. It has been "here" for about 2 years now). The difference in dogs and handlers is astounding. Do you play "It's Yer Choice" with him too? Thats one of their favourite games & we play it with both dogs laying next to each other...scatter treats all over the floor gradually getting closer till they have them on each paw & even on their nose...then they get the release word & it's a mad rush to gather up the treats. I do it with their bones as well. I have used that game to finally (I hope) get on top of start line stays. I would love to do courses like SG's 360, but I am very limited with my internet speed & download allowance. I have been teaching my advanced class the new moves though & of course training them with the dogs. It's when he is over excited that he does it. He does the same thing when our other dog starts running around him...he grabs onto the end of her tail...mind you she really provokes him & pushes his buttons :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Thats one of their favourite games & we play it with both dogs laying next to each other...scatter treats all over the floor gradually getting closer till they have them on each paw & even on their nose You can play its yer choice with behaviours too... so something I will be trying with my dog is IYC in a head halter - from SG recallers... Because a collar grab when she's barking and lunging at a dog that she's frustrated about (can't always tell if she's excited-friendly or excited-fierce) will engage something called "the opposition reflex" and actually make her more excited about the whole thing instead of calming her down. So the IYC and head halter involves getting control of her head and turning it away from the exciting thing as you both get further away from it. So the IYC and barking/biting... you move - what's your dog's choice? you set up a trigger - what's your dog's choice (of behaviour) and what is your response? And start lines stays - the reset involves calm collar grab and moving the dog back to where you put them for the start. So you line them up for a start - I practice this on the beach or open park - no equipment - and you "lead out", sometimes you look back and sometimes you don't and sometimes you look back some of the time... you have to watch where you're going... if the dog moves - you calmly walk back and reposition them. I usually laugh at my dog and say "oops" at her tho I use "oops" when I stuff up too so it doesn't carry a lot of meaning apart from - we're starting over. When my dog is good at staying put with a nice long leadout, I start adding distraction, from a closer distance and trying to fake her out. For her this is really really exciting. The reward is the release and chase (for a toy or my hat). She has a very good understanding of the criteria, ie to keep all four paws planted until I say "go" (thinking "now" would be a good release word as in not yet, not yet - now!). paws still, butt parked (if she's not in a stand)... And I jump around and run past her and run back to her and wave my arms around and say "turkey".... all to try to fake her out... and if she holds position, I say "go"... and I may or may not run... and she gets my hat. Running is better, she likes that more and I could use the exercise. The hat or toy gives her something to grab instead of me tho I do have to be careful to keep my fingers out the way cos she launches at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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