Barking/jumping Up/nipping During Agility Runs

[Kavik]

Casting and driving ability are different things. A dog can have a wide natural cast and still be good at driving. They have to go get the sheep before any driving happens :)

I am going to say that the jumping up at the handler is instinct though. Border collies like to make things move, So they can then make them stop :laugh: I've seen my dogs do this to lots of critters, various degrees of force until the animal runs. Then they stop them. I haven't seen them do this with sheep though probably because they don't have to and the sheep cooperate and move.

Interestingly Poppy does work fairly close on sheep and wouldn't work away from me in agility.

I don't want my dogs creating movement for the hell of it. If the sheep don't need to be moved anywhere and they are together, I don't expect my dog to do anything, I certainly don't want them to make the sheep move unnecessarily. I have a bitch who has some show lines behind her and that is what she wants to do. Works beautifully, nice and calm, very useful dog. But can't handle the lack of movement. She has a reliable stop but doesn't have the patience to wait for longer periods or just watch calmly. She has to create movement. It is not a useful attribute for a border collie to have IMHO.

In agility, the dogs should never be trying to create movement in the handler. Nipping, jumping up etc is frustration because the handler is not giving the correct information or not giving it in a timely fashion. I am seeing it a lot at the moment with people trying to throw in fancy moves when they are not required or not even suitable for that situation. Dogs are asking lots of questions and getting inconsistent answers.

I have an awesome dog who is just too much dog for me. I gave him to Tailwag to start running about a year ago now. I frustrated the hell out of him as my cues were poorly timed or inconsistent. He was forever barking at me, launching himself at me, and even went in for a nip sometimes. He reached a point where he was second guessing me even when my cues were spot on. I was worried he would hurt me and that made me handle him too conservatively which made the problem worse. Tailwag just gets out there and runs, he much prefers that and they are starting to gel nicely now.

Does Tailwag want a go at a Kelpie :laugh:

Edited December 16, 2015 by Kavik

[DeltaCharlie]

Casting and driving ability are different things. A dog can have a wide natural cast and still be good at driving. They have to go get the sheep before any driving happens :)

I am going to say that the jumping up at the handler is instinct though. Border collies like to make things move, So they can then make them stop :laugh: I've seen my dogs do this to lots of critters, various degrees of force until the animal runs. Then they stop them. I haven't seen them do this with sheep though probably because they don't have to and the sheep cooperate and move.

Interestingly Poppy does work fairly close on sheep and wouldn't work away from me in agility.

I don't want my dogs creating movement for the hell of it. If the sheep don't need to be moved anywhere and they are together, I don't expect my dog to do anything, I certainly don't want them to make the sheep move unnecessarily. I have a bitch who has some show lines behind her and that is what she wants to do. Works beautifully, nice and calm, very useful dog. But can't handle the lack of movement. She has a reliable stop but doesn't have the patience to wait for longer periods or just watch calmly. She has to create movement. It is not a useful attribute for a border collie to have IMHO.

In agility, the dogs should never be trying to create movement in the handler. Nipping, jumping up etc is frustration because the handler is not giving the correct information or not giving it in a timely fashion. I am seeing it a lot at the moment with people trying to throw in fancy moves when they are not required or not even suitable for that situation. Dogs are asking lots of questions and getting inconsistent answers.

I have an awesome dog who is just too much dog for me. I gave him to Tailwag to start running about a year ago now. I frustrated the hell out of him as my cues were poorly timed or inconsistent. He was forever barking at me, launching himself at me, and even went in for a nip sometimes. He reached a point where he was second guessing me even when my cues were spot on. I was worried he would hurt me and that made me handle him too conservatively which made the problem worse. Tailwag just gets out there and runs, he much prefers that and they are starting to gel nicely now.

Does Tailwag want a go at a Kelpie :laugh:

She'll take on anything :laugh:

[DeltaCharlie]

Fairly sure I said that my dogs don't do it to sheep.

Sorry, I was talking about the comment about border collies liking to create movement. That is actually an undesirable trait for them to have and I would like to think that it isn't something that all BCs have.

The bloke who started our dogs puts dogs into a sliding scale between 2 extremes. Those who like to create movement and those who like to control movement. Ideally, you need a mix of the 2 in a good working dog. A dog at either extreme is no use.

On a slight tangent though, if it is a behaviour that is not present on stock, can it really be called a working instinct?

[JulesP]

Fairly sure I said that my dogs don't do it to sheep.

Sorry, I was talking about the comment about border collies liking to create movement. That is actually an undesirable trait for them to have and I would like to think that it isn't something that all BCs have.

The bloke who started our dogs puts dogs into a sliding scale between 2 extremes. Those who like to create movement and those who like to control movement. Ideally, you need a mix of the 2 in a good working dog. A dog at either extreme is no use.

On a slight tangent though, if it is a behaviour that is not present on stock, can it really be called a working instinct?

Ummm I actually said they like to make things move so they can stop them.

[superminty]

Fairly sure I said that my dogs don't do it to sheep.

Sorry, I was talking about the comment about border collies liking to create movement. That is actually an undesirable trait for them to have and I would like to think that it isn't something that all BCs have.

The bloke who started our dogs puts dogs into a sliding scale between 2 extremes. Those who like to create movement and those who like to control movement. Ideally, you need a mix of the 2 in a good working dog. A dog at either extreme is no use.

Have to ask - given stockwork RELIES on both the creation and control of movement, what use is a working dog that doesn't want to create movement? Maybe I am just misinterpreting what you're saying.

I do agree about the siding scale though - I have "create movement" addicts - control that movement, not so much (but we're working on it).

[DeltaCharlie]

Fairly sure I said that my dogs don't do it to sheep.

Sorry, I was talking about the comment about border collies liking to create movement. That is actually an undesirable trait for them to have and I would like to think that it isn't something that all BCs have.

The bloke who started our dogs puts dogs into a sliding scale between 2 extremes. Those who like to create movement and those who like to control movement. Ideally, you need a mix of the 2 in a good working dog. A dog at either extreme is no use.

Have to ask - given stockwork RELIES on both the creation and control of movement, what use is a working dog that doesn't want to create movement? Maybe I am just misinterpreting what you're saying.

I do agree about the siding scale though - I have "create movement" addicts - control that movement, not so much (but we're working on it).

That was my point :) A dog that just wants to create movement for the hell of it is hard work and a PITA. A dog that just wants to control movement and is too sticky is no use either. You want something in between :)

[skip]

Interesting read on herding instinct. I don't have the experience you guys have with working dogs but I think I understand what Vicki/ Agility Dogs are talking about. Early on with my kelpie I did encourage a lot of herding behaviour. I sent her round trees, round things, asking for stops and change of direction. We didn't actually herd sheep till much later.

I was cautioned by a agility trainer to b careful of too much herding. I didn't quite see a problem till one day she was aroused and ran around a obstacle. This had never happened with my other dogs. She only did it a couple of times and I must have adjusted my cues accordingly. I suppose I was used to giving enthusiastic cues to my smaller x dogs. I was told if I wasn't careful I would give a send to an obstacle and she'd be in the next ring over. And yes, she naturally works a fair distance. On a pushbike ride, a footy field over apparently is acceptable to her standard of with me.

However I adjusted my style and her herding obstacles wasn't an issue. I used to worry that I'd not b good enough with handling and get that frustrated behaviour but we were fine in the short time we had to compete. But the running round something I thought was just her instinctual love of running round things. Great dogs aren't they☺

[Agility Dogs]

Interesting read on herding instinct. I don't have the experience you guys have with working dogs but I think I understand what Vicki/ Agility Dogs are talking about. Early on with my kelpie I did encourage a lot of herding behaviour. I sent her round trees, round things, asking for stops and change of direction. We didn't actually herd sheep till much later.

I was cautioned by a agility trainer to b careful of too much herding. I didn't quite see a problem till one day she was aroused and ran around a obstacle. This had never happened with my other dogs. She only did it a couple of times and I must have adjusted my cues accordingly. I suppose I was used to giving enthusiastic cues to my smaller x dogs. I was told if I wasn't careful I would give a send to an obstacle and she'd be in the next ring over. And yes, she naturally works a fair distance. On a pushbike ride, a footy field over apparently is acceptable to her standard of with me.

However I adjusted my style and her herding obstacles wasn't an issue. I used to worry that I'd not b good enough with handling and get that frustrated behaviour but we were fine in the short time we had to compete. But the running round something I thought was just her instinctual love of running round things. Great dogs aren't they☺

Ithink I was a bit unclear. They are herding the handler, not necessarily the obstacle.