Barking/jumping Up/nipping During Agility Runs

[sheena]

Yeah I figured the only ones likely to understand what I wrote were MRB and TSD as we all follow Susan Garrett! :laugh:

Yeah...I figured it probably meant reinforcement zone...but my understanding stopped there :laugh: I guess it is a bit like when I start using terms like FFC with C, FFC with E, GT, RS, F, LT, BC, PT & HA etc :laugh: bottom line is that it doesn't matter what they are called...just learn how to do them :) God...when I started agility all we had to worry about were FC's,& BC's.

ETA...now I know why my Cricket is getting frustrated

Edited November 26, 2015 by sheena

[Kavik]

Basically I want him to be able to sit next to me, for me to be able to leave him in a sit and lead out, him to look at the obstacle (focus forward), then send to the obstacle. And he was confused about what to do.

[raineth]

I don't know any agility people who would remotely suggest giving him a clout!

I would be looking at your handling system first and foremost. You shouldn't need to be calling him off obstacles - and it's nothing to do with how fast he is or you are. Independent obstacles, contacts, tunnel sends allows you to get into position without running. Spinning, barking biting and frustration are often about thd dog asking questions.

Hmmm... I do & to be honest I was shocked when this particular person who is very high up in the agility circuit said that to me No matter how well your dog knows discrimination you still have to call "come" & give him the cues for obstacles & we do heaps of ground work working on different moves etc..putting them into small sequences...he's fine with this..it's just when I run a full course...he just sometimes like to do his own thing & when I call him back to me, that's when he gets frustrated with me. I think I am going to have to put the brakes on seconds earlier before it escalates into him being just plain idiotic & jumping up & nipping. My OH used to run him & I think he might have let him get away with it a bit too much (among other things), but we have swapped dogs, mainly because he runs better for me because I am a bit more stricter with contacts & start line stays. And we thought if he started running my old girl, it may bring back a bit more drive in her...sort of like being born again.

I wonder...it just occurred to me...that he mainly trys to nip me, when I am in front of him....I wonder if it is his herding instinct...it's almost like he is trying to get me to stop or turn around. When he is running with my girl he grabs her by the tail when he gets too excited.

Just on this note, I think people often tend to advise punishment when they are at the limits of their understanding.

[Agility Dogs]

My problem was that Nitro was barking and bouncing when I left him in a stationary position and when I was sending him to do an obstacle, so he wasn't sure if he was supposed to be staying in/following RZ or not.

So I worked RZ cue and release from RZ to a treat, and sit in RZ, I take a step and cue RZ. (my RZ is not anywhere near as pretty as SG's :laugh: )

Value for obstacles and crate. Including verbals.

When in RZ in front of crate or obstacle, I then wait for FF to release to crate or obstacle. This is what was giving me grief before I did this remedial training, and where he would bark and bounce.

Also important that the dogs understand accel and decel cues - accel gives them the permission to blast past/out of RZ. Decel, not so much. ie: If I'm running I want my dogs to run past me and keep on going until I slow. If I'm slowing I want them to come into Reinforcement Zone. Can't have too much accel, but can have WAY too little decel.

[Kavik]

Yes I will need to do work on that as well. Decel caused lots of issues with Kaos, we got lots of refusals for a long time as he would stop in front of a jump when I decelled :laugh: . Verbals for our tight turns fixed that.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I then wait for FF to release to crate or obstacle

FF - focus forward? I make evil hound focus on her dinner before I release her but she will only look at me on the start line. she might look at a lump of roast chicken if I put that after the jump but she won't look at the jump until I release (say "go"). At least she looks at it when we're lining up.

I'm working on RZ as the default release

so you mean that if there is nothing else available the default option for the dog is to come to the RZ position?

I think that would be ok unless I've got other things available - like a jump... but that has its own cue, tho we're still working on take all the obstacles in front of you until I cue a turn. And we're a bit fuzzy on what the turn cues are - I'd rather not have them on my body/shoulder movement and only on arm (pointing)/verbal.

As for the stays - I cue those "wait" cos we started old school obedience training and I've never gotten her to have the idea that you stay in the "control position" (sit, stand, drop) until I say you can move ("go") - without the "wait" command. So she will happily do heel work until I tell her "wait"

I don't think about front crosses or rear crosses or blind crosses any more - I think about turns and arm changes. I can't do the Derrett style spinny front cross because one of my knees doesn't work properly and I don't want to bust it again...

Blind crosses are much easier for us than some front crosses. And come more naturally to a cattle dog that likes to drive (and nip) from behind. And I'm getting better with her completeing jumps when I have a cue for jump and go straight (jump) and jump and turn tight (check check), she's reasonably good at left and right - but I keep saying the wrong one so it sometimes comes out left - other left... but she knows "finish" and other (side)...

Another one that will be useful if I ever train it is "wit wit" or "with me" ie come to RZ without taking any more obstacles...

And I still need to train "take the dark side" or the back side of the jump not the front. SG has "c'arn" (come) and lala and nana for that. I think. c'arn used to mean "come between the jumps and flick" but it's modified now to take the dark side...

[Kavik]

Yeah FF = Focus Forward. I'm finding a strong background of IYC is helping a lot with that, and Nitro is picking it up quicker than Kaos did :)

[Agility Dogs]

c'arn used to mean "come between the jumps and flick" but it's modified now to take the dark side...

Do you mean you've modified it?

For SG it still means, don't take the obvious side of the jump/tunnel entry, come to me and then flick away to take the obstacle. That might mean going around the back if you are out of position, but typically it means come off the face or away from the obvious tunnel entry and take the other side. As opposed to go around the back.

[Kavik]

A threadle then :)

I am really looking forward to teaching Nitro the new threadle :) I think it will make things so much clearer to the dogs to separate the cues for "come off the obvious plane/entry and take the non-obvious one" (threadles) and "come with me instead of taking the obstacle that is staring you in the face" (now flappy tappy/wit wit wit etc) :laugh: I don't think it was as clear for Kaos, running under Derrett handling where threadles had the same handling as pulling them off obstacles/false turns. I could see that he sometimes still had questions.

Edited November 26, 2015 by Kavik

[The Spotted Devil]

Took Zig ages to pick up the threadle but Em was quick smart as she hadn't had as much GD history. Both are great with it now - saves a LOT of confusion.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

c'arn used to mean "come between the jumps and flick" but it's modified now to take the dark side...

Do you mean you've modified it?

For SG it still means, don't take the obvious side of the jump/tunnel entry, come to me and then flick away to take the obstacle. That might mean going around the back if you are out of position, but typically it means come off the face or away from the obvious tunnel entry and take the other side. As opposed to go around the back.

No I didn't modify it. Recent coaching call (H360 I think) - she used it on a course that wasn't at all like a threadle. Well it sort of was a threadle if you made a straight line (so all the bars were in the same line) of the obstacles but they weren't in a straight line. More like off set steps or something. I'm definitely going to have to go back and watch that call again. But it wasn't as simple as dog goes around the back of the jump (dark side) and jumps back towards the handler.

I don't want to use/think "back side" of jump - because "back" is a command I use to get my dog to back up... If I think "back side" - that's what will come out of my mouth.

[sheena]

c'arn used to mean "come between the jumps and flick" but it's modified now to take the dark side...

Do you mean you've modified it?

For SG it still means, don't take the obvious side of the jump/tunnel entry, come to me and then flick away to take the obstacle. That might mean going around the back if you are out of position, but typically it means come off the face or away from the obvious tunnel entry and take the other side. As opposed to go around the back.

No I didn't modify it. Recent coaching call (H360 I think) - she used it on a course that wasn't at all like a threadle. Well it sort of was a threadle if you made a straight line (so all the bars were in the same line) of the obstacles but they weren't in a straight line. More like off set steps or something. I'm definitely going to have to go back and watch that call again. But it wasn't as simple as dog goes around the back of the jump (dark side) and jumps back towards the handler.

I don't want to use/think "back side" of jump - because "back" is a command I use to get my dog to back up... If I think "back side" - that's what will come out of my mouth.

I have trained "push" to go to the dark side, because I learnt backsides when they were called "push throughs"...why they were called that I have no idea...should have been called "push behinds"

[Agility Dogs]

I don't want to use/think "back side" of jump - because "back" is a command I use to get my dog to back up... If I think "back side" - that's what will come out of my mouth.

And the judge may not like you running around a course talking about backsides. ;)

Yeah - I think what you are seeing is her pulling the dog off the obvious side of the jump and then going around to take the back, rather than a push to the back so to speak.

There are so many semantics in this and she's changing what she's doing all the time as well - still very much evolving which is hard for us when everything was static for so long.

[Agility Dogs]

[

I have trained "push" to go to the dark side, because I learnt backsides when they were called "push throughs"...why they were called that I have no idea...should have been called "push behinds"

Pretty sure that they were push throughs because they were always set up like a serpentine line, but were numbered the other way. Push to the backs really only have become a thing in the last few years from what I can see. (And we still don't see that many of them in our courses IMO - not a bad thing either.)

[sheena]

[

I have trained "push" to go to the dark side, because I learnt backsides when they were called "push throughs"...why they were called that I have no idea...should have been called "push behinds"

Pretty sure that they were push throughs because they were always set up like a serpentine line, but were numbered the other way. Push to the backs really only have become a thing in the last few years from what I can see. (And we still don't see that many of them in our courses IMO - not a bad thing either.)

Ahhh....there you go...I have finally found out why they called them "push throughs" :)

[Agility Dogs]

[

I have trained "push" to go to the dark side, because I learnt backsides when they were called "push throughs"...why they were called that I have no idea...should have been called "push behinds"

Pretty sure that they were push throughs because they were always set up like a serpentine line, but were numbered the other way. Push to the backs really only have become a thing in the last few years from what I can see. (And we still don't see that many of them in our courses IMO - not a bad thing either.)

Ahhh....there you go...I have finally found out why they called them "push throughs" :)

Of course, I could be wrong, but it kind of makes sense.

[Tassie]

I'm loving my la-la for the backside .. that seems to resonate with the Misguided Missile, and wit-wit is working pretty well. Coommmmme is still a bit of a work in progress .. more training would help :) , but in general, we are a much happier dog/handler team even with the amount of H360 I've done .. only about half way through, and the old brain keeps having to go back and re-do .. which is not a bad thing.

Another nice thing I'm noticing, is that as an indication that the lad has fewer questions now, his drives to the finish are much more solid .. no head checks before the last jump lately. Of course that can come back to bite too, if there's a sneaky little circle before what looks like the last jump :laugh: , and the old lady can't get the right words out quickly enough.

Relating back to sheena's original post, have to say that even with the incomplete H360 we've done, there's much less frustration from Rory on course, unless I get totally lost .. in which case I get him to drop, to give me a pause to regroup (if possible) .. and the verbal drop is much more quickly effective thanks to our practice on verbals.

Bummer about the slow/patchy internet, sheena.

[corvus]

If the dog is getting aggravated when you pass in front, the knee jerk ethologist's question is are you introducing visual stimuli that are highly relevant to him, yet he can't figure out what they mean? From a purely behavioural perspective, just break it down. Form a hypothesis and test it. Isolate the possibilities and test if they provoke biting one at a time. If it's predictable, then you can form a plan of attack that directly addresses the triggers. Of course, it could be your entire handling system, and going through the process of fixing this problem will just result in it manifesting in another way, but it might be simpler than that, too.

Incidentally, I have been observing working dogs on sheep all year for work, and I am becoming increasingly disbelieving of this assertion I hear all the time that good dogs won't bite sheep. Hmmm. But any that are working off the farm will be muzzled, and having seen what they do when they get excited, that seems warranted to me. Some are good at generating excitement when no one is looking. Cheeky beggars!

[Agility Dogs]

Incidentally, I have been observing working dogs on sheep all year for work, and I am becoming increasingly disbelieving of this assertion I hear all the time that good dogs won't bite sheep. Hmmm. But any that are working off the farm will be muzzled, and having seen what they do when they get excited, that seems warranted to me. Some are good at generating excitement when no one is looking. Cheeky beggars!

This is why my boy won't see sheep again. He is from incredible lines, has more instinct than I would ever know what to do with, but isn't afraid of biting either. I just don't have the time/ability/inclination to train that out of him.

Unfortunately the ability to work tirelessly and without getting discouraged doesn't always come without a few little quirks. LOL.

[sheena]

My last BC girl (now deceased) had no fear of the cows & if they didn't go in the direction she wanted them too, then she would swing off their tails. One day she was helping to get a neighbours wild bull out of our paddock & was going for his nose, when, whoops, she slipped right in front of him. From there on in, she made up her mind never to do any more cattle work :laugh: