sheena Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 (edited) My boy has always had a tendency to start barking & then jump up a little during agility runs. He does it because he is over stimulated & gets peeved off when he gets called off too many obstacles. I am sure it is a mixture of over excitement & frustration (on his part). This was quite manageable when he was in the lower grades, & after a couple of runs he would settle down, but now he is up in Masters it has escalated....more call offs I guess & tighter courses. I have always handled it by immediately stopping, giving him a stern look & waiting for him to settle before allowing him to run on. He has on occasions made contact with clothing & once he got my elbow. Last Monday at training, he started doing it & jumped up & nipped my collar right under my chin, narrowly missing my face Am I doing the right thing by immediately stopping & waiting for him to settle & not allowing him to self-reward by letting him run on or is there a better way of handling it??? Some people I know would just give him a clout...but I am definitely not going to do that & would never, ever hit him. He knows he has done wrong & I can see it in his eyes that he is saying "sorry"...but to be honest it is making me nervous (which doesn't help). He is not aggressive & off course he is like a lamb & often will go to sleep while waiting in line...it's a combination of excitement & frustration. We spend a lot of time teaching him the moves & cues, but on course he just wants to go... sorry to be so long winded Edited November 25, 2015 by sheena Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 (edited) I don't know any agility people who would remotely suggest giving him a clout! I would be looking at your handling system first and foremost. You shouldn't need to be calling him off obstacles - and it's nothing to do with how fast he is or you are. Independent obstacles, contacts, tunnel sends allows you to get into position without running. Spinning, barking biting and frustration are often about the dog asking questions. Edited November 25, 2015 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted November 24, 2015 Share Posted November 24, 2015 I agree with TSD. Nitro has a tendency to stop, stand there and bark at me if he is unsure of what he is supposed to be doing or is frustrated. Maybe some more time working on understanding of your cues separately would help. Like one jump work to work on your cues for turning, backsides, go straight, serps, threadles etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted November 25, 2015 Author Share Posted November 25, 2015 I don't know any agility people who would remotely suggest giving him a clout! I would be looking at your handling system first and foremost. You shouldn't need to be calling him off obstacles - and it's nothing to do with how fast he is or you are. Independent obstacles, contacts, tunnel sends allows you to get into position without running. Spinning, barking biting and frustration are often about thd dog asking questions. Hmmm... I do & to be honest I was shocked when this particular person who is very high up in the agility circuit said that to me No matter how well your dog knows discrimination you still have to call "come" & give him the cues for obstacles & we do heaps of ground work working on different moves etc..putting them into small sequences...he's fine with this..it's just when I run a full course...he just sometimes like to do his own thing & when I call him back to me, that's when he gets frustrated with me. I think I am going to have to put the brakes on seconds earlier before it escalates into him being just plain idiotic & jumping up & nipping. My OH used to run him & I think he might have let him get away with it a bit too much (among other things), but we have swapped dogs, mainly because he runs better for me because I am a bit more stricter with contacts & start line stays. And we thought if he started running my old girl, it may bring back a bit more drive in her...sort of like being born again. I wonder...it just occurred to me...that he mainly trys to nip me, when I am in front of him....I wonder if it is his herding instinct...it's almost like he is trying to get me to stop or turn around. When he is running with my girl he grabs her by the tail when he gets too excited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ness Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 My view would be similar to TSD, in that if your having to call him off something I to would be suggesting the information to go to the correct obstacle isn't clear enough to him - so I would guess there is something missing from the foundation training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 There are certainly times when you need to get them into the less obvious tunnel entry, or to go past an obstacle in their path. So I would make sure your cues for those are clear and well understood, that is where confusion crept in with Kaos (not up to that yet with Nitro). Which is different depending on your handling system Derrett would be your off (threadle) arm/false turn H360/Shape Up (not sure about other euro handling but some would probably be similar) would be threadle for less obvious tunnel and flappy tappy/wit wit wit, side tap (whatever you want to call it :laugh: ) for going past obstacles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Dog bless H360 threadle arm....I can call that so early when you combine with a sprinkler (turn) cue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casima Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 I will have to agree with everyone else, I would look at your handling, video yourself at training and trials and while watching ask yourself these sorts of questions. Are you giving him his cues early enough? does he understand them well enough? have you proofed his handling cues while he is extra excited and going fast? Do you have a clear way to tell him ahead of time where you are going next so he doesn't have to be called off of anything? do you reward him at random mid sequence at training when he does respond well to his cues? are you getting in his way on front/blind crosses? Are you setting clear lines for him before he catches back up to you after sending? Have you taught him to focus on the obsticals and look where he is going instead of at the handler while doing agility? I am not a fast runner and I have a very fast BC, if you are not a fast runner with a keen dog it takes much more training than for fast handlers to be able to run these masters courses. You need to take a good honest look at your handling and make sure you have answers to the challenges judges set and that there are no inconsistancies to confuse your dog. Are you able to cue your dog to show him where to go even if you can't always get anywhere near the obsticals? It is most definately possible but does take quite a lot of training to get all your cues independant enough and the dog responding well while he is excited and going fast. You need to be able to cue things like threadles, backsides, tight turns, other end of tunnel, go straight and turn towards or away from you at a distance, plus strong cues for various obsticals to help give him clarity and confidence in where he is going. Meanwhile, jumping and nipping behaviour is certainly unacceptable, I think I would be calmly ending the run and walking back to his crate if you ever feel teeth or even if he gets too jumpy. Don't go crook at him or anything and try to stay relaxed yourself, he isn't in trouble, he just needs to learn that if he does teeth the game is over for a time, just calmly end the game and walk back to the crate, let him sit for a bit to calm down, then try again. This alone wont fix your problem, but hopefully wont inadvertantly encourage it to escalate either while you work on the handling and training bits. He is excited and frustrated at the same time, but should get better and even go away completely if you put the work in to give him more clarity with better handling and training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pie Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 I have seen dogs that do this here, the more positive (and I would say, better) handlers tend to put their dog in a down or sit and then calmly take them out of the ring. The more negative people shout at the dog and throw a tanty and probably would sneakily clout their dog if they knew they wouldn't be seen... which I definitely do not agree with and seems that the dog just gets more frustrated. I would agree with the others that improving handling to eliminate the questions might give him less chance to get frustrated and over aroused. No idea what I would do in this situation because my dogs are way down the other end of the intensity scale when it comes to agility :laugh: I would think this is quite a common problem? Hopefully someone shares what has worked for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted November 25, 2015 Author Share Posted November 25, 2015 I will have to agree with everyone else, I would look at your handling, video yourself at training and trials and while watching ask yourself these sorts of questions. Are you giving him his cues early enough? does he understand them well enough? have you proofed his handling cues while he is extra excited and going fast? Do you have a clear way to tell him ahead of time where you are going next so he doesn't have to be called off of anything? do you reward him at random mid sequence at training when he does respond well to his cues? are you getting in his way on front/blind crosses? Are you setting clear lines for him before he catches back up to you after sending? Have you taught him to focus on the obsticals and look where he is going instead of at the handler while doing agility? I am not a fast runner and I have a very fast BC, if you are not a fast runner with a keen dog it takes much more training than for fast handlers to be able to run these masters courses. You need to take a good honest look at your handling and make sure you have answers to the challenges judges set and that there are no inconsistancies to confuse your dog. Are you able to cue your dog to show him where to go even if you can't always get anywhere near the obsticals? It is most definately possible but does take quite a lot of training to get all your cues independant enough and the dog responding well while he is excited and going fast. You need to be able to cue things like threadles, backsides, tight turns, other end of tunnel, go straight and turn towards or away from you at a distance, plus strong cues for various obsticals to help give him clarity and confidence in where he is going. Meanwhile, jumping and nipping behaviour is certainly unacceptable, I think I would be calmly ending the run and walking back to his crate if you ever feel teeth or even if he gets too jumpy. Don't go crook at him or anything and try to stay relaxed yourself, he isn't in trouble, he just needs to learn that if he does teeth the game is over for a time, just calmly end the game and walk back to the crate, let him sit for a bit to calm down, then try again. This alone wont fix your problem, but hopefully wont inadvertantly encourage it to escalate either while you work on the handling and training bits. He is excited and frustrated at the same time, but should get better and even go away completely if you put the work in to give him more clarity with better handling and training. No....I am not perfect by a long shot & I have only just taken over running him. He used to do the same with OH when he was running him, but he just used to put up with the jumping & the nipping & just stick a band aid on it. So apart from us both getting used to running together as a team...the fact that OH just used to let him self reward (same with contacts & start lines). That is not going to happen overnight, so yeah...you agree then.. just stop all action & wait for him to settle down. I havn't as yet, stopped, put him back on lead & walk off...but maybe I could try that. What I don't want to do is shut him down & take away his love of what he is doing...so maybe the answer lays half way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 I have the same issues with our girl...3 ripped shirts in the meanwhile...when she jumps and tries to nip I do the 'finger into the throat' game ...I used this method to teach her that 'she doesn't want my - or anyone's fingers - in her mouth' ...worked so far for the 'normal' training when she just wanted to take my hand / fingers into here mouth, but it is of course pretty tricky during a run and comes with some scratches...but it seems to work also during the agility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 That's not a game. That's punishing a dog for feeling frustrated. There are plenty of better ways including teaching self-control during high arousal - tugging and collar grab games are very useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) That's not a game. That's punishing a dog for feeling frustrated. There are plenty of better ways including teaching self-control during high arousal - tugging and collar grab games are very useful. ...nothing else worked - this worked, and yes, it doesn't feel nice for her (that's why she led immediately go and now nibbles only very rarely during high arousal), but believe me, it hurts me more than her as she has very sharp teeth :) ETA:...I don't think she is frustrated...she is just overexcited and her instincts come through... Edited November 25, 2015 by Willem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 That's not a game. That's punishing a dog for feeling frustrated. There are plenty of better ways including teaching self-control during high arousal - tugging and collar grab games are very useful. ...nothing else worked - this worked, and yes, it doesn't feel nice for her (that's why she led immediately go and now nibbles only very rarely during high arousal), but believe me, it hurts me more than her as she has very sharp teeth :) ETA:...I don't think she is frustrated...she is just overexcited and her instincts come through... What else did you try? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 That's not a game. That's punishing a dog for feeling frustrated. There are plenty of better ways including teaching self-control during high arousal - tugging and collar grab games are very useful. ...nothing else worked - this worked, and yes, it doesn't feel nice for her (that's why she led immediately go and now nibbles only very rarely during high arousal), but believe me, it hurts me more than her as she has very sharp teeth :) ETA:...I don't think she is frustrated...she is just overexcited and her instincts come through... You're right. Nothing else that you've tried has worked. But I assure you that there are other ways that will work - they teach your dog to make good choices without nagging or discipline. Your "excited" dog is not learning to control her own behaviour. Channel that excitement into something constructive (like agility) and you will both have more fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 I don't do agility but to look at this from a simpler perspective - it sounds like he might see you as the Fun Police, someone who is stopping him from doing what he wants to do (running the course) rather than seeing listening to you as the way he gets access to reward. I see this a lot with handlers whose dogs have a higher value for obstacles than the rewards the handle has to offer. If he is running a course and you release him to reward will he stop what he is doing to get rewarded or will he keep going on the course? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) ...collar grabbing, calm her down (yes, she calms down...but 5 minutes later she started again...), walking away, ignored her...stern look (definitely doesn't work)... some of the above stopped her for the moment doing it, what I want is that she doesn't start it at all. I also train her with the flirt pole...the 'take it - leave it' game...so this also seems to help and now a big 'NO' and 'LEAVE IT' works in 99% of the scenarios when she gets overexcited. ETA: ...the flirt pole is actually a very good tool to train her while she is in this overexcited mode... Edited November 25, 2015 by Willem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 ...collar grabbing, calm her down (yes, she calms down...but 5 minutes later she started again...), walking away, ignored her...stern look (definitely doesn't work)... some of the above stopped her for the moment doing it, what I want is that she doesn't start it at all. I also train her with the flirt pole...the 'take it - leave it' game...so this also seems to help and now a big 'NO' and 'LEAF IT' works in 99% of the scenarios when she gets overexcited. Ah - but a collar grab game used correctly does not ask her to calm down. It asks her to use self-control in an aroused state to get what she finds rewarding - i.e. the tug. Like my Springers who are WILD about birds and game - they will hold a rock solid sit stay with rabbits and birds right in front of them because they understand that's the surest way to be rewarded with a retrieve. My Em literally shakes from head to toe she's so excited but waits until she is given permission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Nitro has overarousal and frustration issues. If he is unsure (or frustrated because he is unsure) he barks. He used to bite but has stopped doing that now (thank goodness!). I LOVE self control games such as Its Yer Choice and Crate Games! While I was initially unsure about them, they really are AWESOME for developing impulse control and I am a big fan now! We spend lots of time on those :laugh: I also have to break down exercises into very small increments and not progress too quickly, and be clear and decisive in cues, and whether or not I am rewarding. It is teaching me to plan my training sessions very well :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Willem - are you familiar with Crate Games? This is my baby puppy, Ginny, learning self control in an environment that provides one or two distractions...as Susan Garrett puts it...layers of understanding... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now