Breeders Terms

[Bjelkier]

Seriously......another one!?

Good lord, you entered into an agreement, STICK TO IT! What happened to people honoring their word? Why did you think it was ok at the time but not now?

17 months old is not too young for a mating, he will not be milked for his sperm (really......really??) he will be mated and you will have him back in no time. He's not exactly going to suffer.....

I fail to see what the actual issue is here aside from you not sticking to your word.

[workcocker1983]

This is starting to become all too common. People changing the goal posts. Everyone just needs to be honest and upfront with each other from the beginning.

If the stud dog is the best thing since sliced bread why is it in a pet home? If I put one of my stud dogs in a pet home I would be awake at night praying that it doesn't get run over by the local Sunday school bus!

[Lhok]

Hi,

I bought my English staffy over 12 months ago as a pup. His breeders wanted him to go on breeders terms. While I paid for him at a "discounted rate" there never has been a contract. He is now 17mo, the breeders have a bitch that doesn't get along with my boys mother so left it to the last minute to notify me that both bitches are in heat and demanded they use my dog who I'm not ready to breed with at the moment. They believe they still have rights to him and refuse to pay me for his services. They have used me in the past to house sit, baby sit their kids, dog sit and puppy sit whilst my dog and his litter where still suckling and being weaned without getting paid, while I was still having to go half an hour down the highway to my place and feed my own animals and travel to work as well. Now I feel that both my dog and I are being used by these people as "a meal ticket". I have let them use him even though they refuse to pay for his services to keep the peace but I'm not happy as he will be with the other bitch 24/7, milked for sperm and kept outside until the weekend when hopefully I'll get him back. Do I have any rights to not have anything to do with these horrible people or should I just suck it up?

Finding it hard to be sympathetic to your cause when it sounds like money is the driving factor. You got a dog at a discounted rate and now you have changed your mind about the contract, sounds like you need to honour it and move on.

--Lhok

[Willem]

Hi,

I bought my English staffy over 12 months ago as a pup. His breeders wanted him to go on breeders terms. While I paid for him at a "discounted rate" there never has been a contract. He is now 17mo, the breeders have a bitch that doesn't get along with my boys mother so left it to the last minute to notify me that both bitches are in heat and demanded they use my dog who I'm not ready to breed with at the moment.

Why are you not ready to breed with him?

Did you have a conversation about when you would breed with him and how often?

They believe they still have rights to him and refuse to pay me for his services.

Uh... well ... Wouldnt that be covered in the agreement - verbal or written?

They have used me in the past to house sit, baby sit their kids, dog sit and puppy sit whilst my dog and his litter where still suckling and being weaned without getting paid, while I was still having to go half an hour down the highway to my place and feed my own animals and travel to work as well. Now I feel that both my dog and I are being used by these people as "a meal ticket".

This sounds like a reasonably un-related matter. Actually sounds like a friendship or house sitting arrangement gone sour - I'm sure we've all been there, done that, in one way or another. I'd keep the house sitting separate to the gripes you have over the breeding terms. Chalk that one up to experience and don't house sit for them again.

I have let them use him even though they refuse to pay for his services to keep the peace but I'm not happy as he will be with the other bitch 24/7, milked for sperm and kept outside until the weekend when hopefully I'll get him back. Do I have any rights to not have anything to do with these horrible people or should I just suck it up?

I would write a list of things directly related to the dog and the breeding that you want to address and have a cup of tea with them to discuss it.

Eg. Where your dog is to be housed during the time, can you drop him off 2 or 3 times during the course of her season or pick him up when they're satisfied he's done the job?

Can you renegotiate the terms of the contract?

Can you buy them out of the contract & have him desexed?

What would you consider fair payment for his service?

How many mating's do they expect from him - how many times per year do they expect to access him?

What do you think is fair from your point of view?

What would happen if you moved interstate with him?

Formalise the agreement, get some clarity around the things you dislike and hopefully you can move on, because honestly you sound a little but whingy - but I would be too if I thought these arrangements had been sprung on me - but I'd say there has just been a miscommunication here.

IMO that's a lot of good advice given here...consider also future advantages an experienced breeder just around the corner can have regarding breed specific (health) issues; that might save one or more trips to the vet.

[Steve]

Hi,

I bought my English staffy over 12 months ago as a pup. His breeders wanted him to go on breeders terms. While I paid for him at a "discounted rate" there never has been a contract. He is now 17mo, the breeders have a bitch that doesn't get along with my boys mother so left it to the last minute to notify me that both bitches are in heat and demanded they use my dog who I'm not ready to breed with at the moment. They believe they still have rights to him and refuse to pay me for his services. They have used me in the past to house sit, baby sit their kids, dog sit and puppy sit whilst my dog and his litter where still suckling and being weaned without getting paid, while I was still having to go half an hour down the highway to my place and feed my own animals and travel to work as well. Now I feel that both my dog and I are being used by these people as "a meal ticket". I have let them use him even though they refuse to pay for his services to keep the peace but I'm not happy as he will be with the other bitch 24/7, milked for sperm and kept outside until the weekend when hopefully I'll get him back. Do I have any rights to not have anything to do with these horrible people or should I just suck it up?

What were the terms you agreed to? "Dog available for stud services" is about the standard one for males.

Why do you need to be ready to breed the dog? It's not like you're going to be expected to supervise the matings is it?

Good people honour their obligations and don't gripe about them on social media. Sorry but that halo is slipping.

Cowboy up, let the dog be used and talk about what the arrangement entails going forward. If health testing needs to be done, the breeder should be paying for it.

Free stud services for the breeders dogs and 50% of the fee for outside bitches is pretty standard.

No way would I put a dog out on breeders terms to "pet owners". This is what you get.

Perhaps giving the dog back would be best.

Sadly its not just "pet owners" that can become turncoats. For 35 years I bred dogs and never ever felt the need to have a written contract but things are different now - and part of my job is to deal with this type of thing - not that it matters much because when people change their mind whether its a written contract or not doesn't seem to stop them being unreasonable and causing everyone grief.

The problem starts when what isnt said or written is used by either party to dig the heels in. In this case the breeder clearly thought selling a dog for a lessor price to someone they trusted and knew would give them the ability to use the dog for stud services indefinitely when they needed to and assumed that because that's what they thought that this would be what the buyer understood. They had a relationship with the buyer, trusted them and nothing to worry about . Now we see the buyer going "I didnt know I would need to allow them to use the dog indefinitely .I thought they meant only once or twice - its not fair"

Is the breeder at fault for not being exact about the sale covering use of the stud dog indefinitely or the buyer for not clarifying what the terms meant before they took the dog? Both thought they knew what the deal was but both had different conclusions. Of course if the relationship is suffering and the buyer already feels used and abused and unappreciated due to other things they offered as a friend this is just another symptom of looking for everything you can to explain why its time to break up the friendship.

So there was no written contract and at no time was a number discussed so the agreement stands at "because I sold the dog to you at a reduced price you agree to allow me to use the dog as a stud dog" If you didnt want it to be when ever they want you should have said once twice three times etc

You didnt so - What do you loose by allowing them to use the dog? Nothing - you're not ready to breed the dog? Why - what could make you say that its not good timing for you - its over and done with .You dont have to be involved in the mating or the whelping or the sales .

You think that you have now allowed your dog to make em back the discount so they owe you - wrong. Basic human nature is that when ever someone gives you a go its short lived and sooner or later you start to feel they owe you rather than the way you did when the deal was cut.

[Gretel]

English staffys.....Are we even talking about registered ANKC pedigree Staffordshire Bull Terriers here?

I wondered the same thing. If you don't even refer to them by the correct name.

[BlaznHotAussies]

English staffys.....Are we even talking about registered ANKC pedigree Staffordshire Bull Terriers here?

I wondered the same thing. If you don't even refer to them by the correct name.

I did wonder that too...but wasn't sure what the correct name was.

[Steve]

English staffys.....Are we even talking about registered ANKC pedigree Staffordshire Bull Terriers here?

I wondered the same thing. If you don't even refer to them by the correct name.

I did wonder that too...but wasn't sure what the correct name was.

Doesnt really matter .I get a couple of phone calls a day from people who want to talk to me about Maremmas - some breed them and some have owned them for a decade or more and they dont pronounce or spell the name correctly whether their experience is with registered ones or not.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Steve

[Leah82]

Just because a written agreement wasn't written up at the time of sale doesn't mean you can't get one written now.

It sounds like you went into the agreement without discussing the logistics which was a failing on both parties but essentially you want to make it clear how often your dog will be needed, how long will he need to stay each time and how long do they want you to keep him entire for, or alternatively how many litters are they hoping to get.

Once you agree on the above you can stop feeling taken advantage of.

and just to be clear it was their dog first, they took the time, effort and money to breed him in the first place and they entrusted him with you so I'm not sure why you feel like they are using you as a meal ticket.

but at the end of the day if you're even considering returning your dog to the breeder then I'd probably go with that option. There's not many people I know that would even consider that after owning a dog for a week let along a year.

[twodoggies2001]

No, there was no kidnapping, I have done the same for friends in the past and not given it a second thought. I did it because I'm a good person and he's a former employee where I work. It was just a verbal agreement, there were no terms on when the dog was to be used or how long he was to be used for. That's why I was asking if I have any rights not to allow them to use the dog in question. They are knowledgeable breeders. I won't be entering into breeders terms again. I feel like handing the dog back to them. Thanks for the advice everyone:)

The one thing that to me is that you feel like giving the dog back. Isn't he a part of your family first and foremost? If he were mine after all that time, there would be no way he would be going back.

[Pjrt]

English staffys.....Are we even talking about registered ANKC pedigree Staffordshire Bull Terriers here?

I wondered the same thing. If you don't even refer to them by the correct name.

I did wonder that too...but wasn't sure what the correct name was.

Doesnt really matter .I get a couple of phone calls a day from people who want to talk to me about Maremmas - some breed them and some have owned them for a decade or more and they dont pronounce or spell the name correctly whether their experience is with registered ones or not.

a

In that sense, no, it doesn't matter.

My point was more that people are here spending time giving advice and I'm sure most of them are assuming the dogs in the OP are ANKC registered breeding animals, as they may well be, but Reading the OP there is nothing to indicate whether the animals in question are pedigree breeding animals or back yard bred animals that are barely the essence of staffy, or anything in between. I just reckon folks wouldn't be so keen to use their time advising byb is all.

[Steve]

English staffys.....Are we even talking about registered ANKC pedigree Staffordshire Bull Terriers here?

I wondered the same thing. If you don't even refer to them by the correct name.

I did wonder that too...but wasn't sure what the correct name was.

Doesnt really matter .I get a couple of phone calls a day from people who want to talk to me about Maremmas - some breed them and some have owned them for a decade or more and they dont pronounce or spell the name correctly whether their experience is with registered ones or not.

a

In that sense, no, it doesn't matter.

My point was more that people are here spending time giving advice and I'm sure most of them are assuming the dogs in the OP are ANKC registered breeding animals, as they may well be, but Reading the OP there is nothing to indicate whether the animals in question are pedigree breeding animals or back yard bred animals that are barely the essence of staffy, or anything in between. I just reckon folks wouldn't be so keen to use their time advising byb is all.

Makes no difference to me - its still a dog my advice or thoughts wouldn't change whether it was a mutt or a pedigree.

[persephone]

English staffys.....Are we even talking about registered ANKC pedigree Staffordshire Bull Terriers here?

I wondered the same thing. If you don't even refer to them by the correct name.

I did wonder that too...but wasn't sure what the correct name was.

Doesnt really matter .I get a couple of phone calls a day from people who want to talk to me about Maremmas - some breed them and some have owned them for a decade or more and they dont pronounce or spell the name correctly whether their experience is with registered ones or not.

a

In that sense, no, it doesn't matter.

My point was more that people are here spending time giving advice and I'm sure most of them are assuming the dogs in the OP are ANKC registered breeding animals, as they may well be, but Reading the OP there is nothing to indicate whether the animals in question are pedigree breeding animals or back yard bred animals that are barely the essence of staffy, or anything in between. I just reckon folks wouldn't be so keen to use their time advising byb is all.

I understand your P O V ....

[Melza83]

....His breeders wanted him to go on breeders terms. While I paid for him at a "discounted rate" there never has been a contract....

...that's an oxymoron...you know it was a discounted rate, you paid him and you got the dog...so that makes a contract between 2 parties with legal obligations. I can only speculate that you meant 'not a written contract'. While written contracts and their small print can be a PIA, sometimes they also make live much easier.

Edited: replaced 'legal contract' with the more precise wording 'contract between 2 parties with legal obligations'

I wish there was a written contract. They were going to write one but never did. I guess I was just surprised that they wanted him at short notice. I was under the impression that the contract had fallen through. I haven't heard from or seen them in months.

[Salukifan]

I wish there was a written contract. They were going to write one but never did. I guess I was just surprised that they wanted him at short notice. I was under the impression that the contract had fallen through. I haven't heard from or seen them in months.

Welcome to the wonderful world of stud dog ownership. You often don't get much notice.

What's to stop you delivering him for his stud services, waiting while it's done and taking him home. Believe me, it doesn't take that long.

Edited November 11, 2015 by Haredown Whippets

[espinay2]

Bitches come in early, bitches ovulate quicker than expected, breeders want to give owners some trust and space and don't expect to live in their pocket to oversee the dog. Could be any number of reasons for things. It seems like at the moment you are trying to latch onto anything you can to justify your feelings. As has already been suggested, these are things you need to talk through, like an adult, with the breeder.

[Simply Grand]

Just curious, have the breeders assessed the dog to see that he is actually a worthy breeding prospect? Have they spent much time with him? Melza83, have you been doing showing or dog sports with him?

Just wondering because I wouldn't have thought a breeder would just call in a 17 month old dog to stud without having done some assessment of him before hand.

[Melza83]

No, I'm annoyed because I was hoping that my dog would not be used for another year or two given that he's still mentally young. Since when did dogs become appliances instead of best friends? I'm lost without him sleeping on my bed and sharing my toast. He goes everywhere except work with me. Don't most breeders breed for money? I have a good paying job. Money is no problem for me and doesn't seem right to me when it comes off the back of an animal. I used to work with thoroughbreds, they are all about money and not the poor horses popping out foals year in year out.

[Rebanne]

No, I'm annoyed because I was hoping that my dog would not be used for another year or two given that he's still mentally young. Since when did dogs become appliances instead of best friends? I'm lost without him sleeping on my bed and sharing my toast. He goes everywhere except work with me. Don't most breeders breed for money? I have a good paying job. Money is no problem for me and doesn't seem right to me when it comes off the back of an animal. I used to work with thoroughbreds, they are all about money and not the poor horses popping out foals year in year out.

for God's sake of course he is old enough to sire a litter and has been for months. As for breeders breeding for money, how insulting you are. Don't just join this site to whinge. Read a bit and open your very closed mind.

So sick of people like you coming in here badmouthing breeders.

[Steve]

Stud dogs are most fertile when they are young - The fact that he hasnt been used AT all yet makes your argument pretty weak. I thought you were upset because he was being used regularly not that this was the FIRST TIME!