South Australia Legislation Change Re Electronic Collars

[Willem]

It's not the same training though. The use of electric fencing for dogs, as per your post above, also requires a physical fence that the dog can clearly see and is always there, not like a snake, and it goes back to what I said above about electric fences.

...area fenced with a fence that is higher than 1.5 m; inside the area is the snake (safely in a cage / box) in one corner, the dog is kept confined in a safe distance away from the snake by the invisible fence (wire in the ground) and the e-collar in the area that is left - approaching the wire / snake will trigger the e-collar.

according to the link this would be legal also in NSW and will work pretty similar - the difference is that the shock is not directly triggered by the trainer, but by the threshold for the distance. Obviously the trainer has a much better control if he/she can trigger the e-collar directly - but it is not legal in NSW, while the second best (?) approach seems to be legal.

[JulesP]

Electric fences don't actually train horses either btw. Well they train them to keep away from electric fences that are turned on but that doesn't transfer to other fences or even electric fences that are turned off. Horses (and my cow!) will test a fence to see if it is on and if it isn't they will go through it if they want to. Maybe I just had smart arse horses.

[Willem]

The GSD jumped about 6 ft in the air when it was shocked!

???...6 ft...that's 1.83 m...I saw the video now several times, but never saw a dog jumping 1.8 m through the air.

[The Spotted Devil]

Electric fences don't actually train horses either btw. Well they train them to keep away from electric fences that are turned on but that doesn't transfer to other fences or even electric fences that are turned off. Horses (and my cow!) will test a fence to see if it is on and if it isn't they will go through it if they want to. Maybe I just had smart arse horses.

Pretty normal :D

[Denis Carthy]

The main issue with snake avoidance training is the lack of evidence for efficacy. Would you shock your dog to install an aversion that might save its life?

What you and most others have written about 'shock' is not the way 'e-collars' are used throughout the rest of the world. The problem with Oz is that there seems to be bans and restrictions either all over the place.....i don't know whats where over there, i remember they were banned in, I think, Queensland as the result of the rspca god of all things sweet & nice, named Wirth, that was way back at least a decade ago.......i have no idea at all whats happened or where in oz since then.

For the record, shock collars started to fall into technological and application obsolesence from 2000 onwards as manufacturers other than TT developed instant selection. Prior to instant selection and with most units to change the level the dog had to be recalled, the contact points unscrewed and another set screwed back to raise or lower the levels.

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[JulesP]

The GSD jumped about 6 ft in the air when it was shocked!

???...6 ft...that's 1.83 m...I saw the video now several times, but never saw a dog jumping 1.8 m through the air.

Jumping 6 feet in the air is a expression. Is English not your first language?

[Simply Grand]

The main issue with snake avoidance training is the lack of evidence for efficacy. Would you shock your dog to install an aversion that might save its life?

What you and most others have written about 'shock' is not the way 'e-collars' are used throughout the rest of the world. The problem with Oz is that there seems to be bans and restrictions either all over the place.....i don't know whats where over there, i remember they were banned in, I think, Queensland as the result of the rspca god of all things sweet & nice, named Wirth, that was way back at least a decade ago.......i have no idea at all whats happened or where in oz since then.

For the record, shock collars started to fall into technological and application obsolesence from 2000 onwards as manufacturers other than TT developed instant selection. Prior to instant selection and with most units to change the level the dog had to be recalled, the contact points unscrewed and another set screwed back to raise or lower the levels.

.

So Denis can you please explain exactly what the modern day collars are supposed to do when used in training?

Is the sensation the dog gets from the collar when the handler pushes the button supposed to in itself reduce an undesirable behaviour, and if so how does it do that? Or is it supposed to signal or cue the dog to do a certain behaviour?

[Denis Carthy]

Is the sensation the dog gets from the collar when the handler pushes the button supposed to in itself reduce an undesirable behaviour,

No, thats an old obsolete method which was used with the old shock collars and here in UK they were very rare, shock collar did not start to develop towards lower levels until the last couple years of the 1980's & the reason they were lowered is that TT (Tri Tronics) was working with its trainers who created the design stages.

Here in UK they were almost unkown & there was no concept even envisaged about shock collars being used as a training aid of any kind, they were never a topic of conversation amongst trainers, we remained illiterate on them.

.

[Simply Grand]

Ok, thank you :) So what do the modern ones do then?

[OSoSwift]

...some other thoughts: there seems to be a lot doubts that the 'electric shock' respectively the use of an e-collar will be beneficial for a dog regarding snake avoidance training and/or maybe regarding other training goals. If I go back to my comparison made at the beginning of the thread regarding the use of electrical fences for horses: strangely (?) horses and / or other cattle seem to handle the employment of those electrical tools pretty well without suffering long term damage?...how come?

Are we using electric collars around the necks of horses and cattle to train them now, the same as ecollars for dogs? I don't think we are?

They learn that the fence 'bites'. How strange would it seem to the dog that it gets 'bitten' and can't see any cause, and with an ecollar this bite will last as long as the button is being pressed.

...horse sees fence = pain, dog sees snake = pain ....what's the difference?

The horse can run away from the shock but the dog can't because it's attached to them?

True but you don't press the button and hold it down for as long as possible do you. One correction, quick then it stops

[OSoSwift]

NOw I live in an area with lots of snakes so I think - for our snakes at least - I am reasonably qualified to share my observations.

We have a good dozen snakes that occur around my general area, three main venomous ones where I live. These are the Dugite, Western Brown and Tiger Snake.

Generally the browns are trying to actively remove themselves and will only arc up if hurt - stepped on, attacked by something - or cornered - yes even inadvertently such as in the corner of a garage. They will also play possum if you are near them and they can slid under a rock or some solid object, staying their quietly and coming out later one when things are quieter. One day I walked around the corner to be confronted by a 6 foot dugite that our pet Magpie had been trying to drive away. It was pissed and lets say I walked around the corner and it chased me, thankfully there was a corner as those things are bloody fast!

Tiger Snakes are reactive, defensive and aggressive. They do not just move out the way if disturbed. Even if you happen to come across one whilst walking they generally won't move, have a really short temper and strike first ask questions later. If you get to close they regularly will "chase" you off. I have seen many many, many, many different snakes not move when I have been out riding my horses and walking my dogs. How they can not tell 650kgs of Clydesdale is trotting near them I don't know, they either don't care or their snakedar is broken!

I have been actively rushed by snakes while riding and walking my dogs, even from metres away. I ride through farm trees on our property and scan the ground in front all the time. I have often had to suddenly had to get my horse to move quickly sideways to avoid treading on a snake. Within inches - NO THEY DON"T JUST MOVE OUT OF THE WAY!!!!!! They never have and never will. Some types of snakes will, other won't. They will stay and strike and flatten their heads and rush. Our puppy trotted to the side of the driveway to toilet one day and my husband saw a black head come up from around 3 metres away, rush the puppy and strike at him, luckily just as he moved off so it missed. He was no where near it.

These snakes are the reason I will risk training my dogs (those with the temperament I believe will handle it) with a shock collar. We have seen 4 in a day close to our sheds and houses. The work dog runs through tall grass moving stock, he is working in the sheep yards, there is a resident Tiger there. No the sheep in the yards does not drive him off he moves around 5 to 10 metres away and that's it.

They look like this http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3766/9259857353_241491853e.jpg

Stamping your feet and making noise movement is going to do very little unless the snake close by is a shy one.

Edited November 14, 2015 by OSoSwift

[Simply Grand]

I have another question for those knowledgeable about the use of e collars - do dogs generally "get used to" a certain level of the stimulation and stop responding to it, meaning you need to increase the level to get the response again?

A lady at the dog park near where I'm staying has one her dog and she said today that she's had to up the level of the shock (her term) as the dog had started ignoring the lower level she had been using.

Just bumping this question as I'd really like to know the answer.

I would suggest there are individual differences SG - the research is very sparse.

Thanks TSD, sorry I missed replying to this before. This issue is something I would want to take into consideration if I was going to use an e-collar (and hopefully good trainers do) because it seems to me that if a dog does get used to a level and needs an increasingly high level of shock/stim/whatever to get results then it propably isn't a good tool to use.

[OSoSwift]

Sorry I didn't mean to upset you but I get so bloody annoyed when I am told just stomp your feet, make noise, they will move out of the way.

Okay so the one moving along the gravel track I was walking along ( the snake was a good couple of metres away and could have easily moved out into the paddock) that kept pace with me whilst I tried to move away on a fenced track and had it's head flattened and turned towards me and made mini rushes at me was just trying too quietly move away from me, silly me thinking anything else!

I find these things are often said by those who rarely come across them or live where there are very, very few. I know they don't want to try and bite me to eat me, I am a tad too chunky, I know they don't want to try and consume my horses or dogs, but some are bad tempered!

[OSoSwift]

Yep, some days I think I might pick everything up and move to NZ!

After coming extremely close to stepping on 4 snakes in one week, one only avoiding it as it pulled it's head back and then flicked its tongue out which I am sure touched my heel - or was so close that I actually had a full on Donald duck tantrum with stamping feet - in the shed after the door slammed shut!

The kids were riding their push bikes down to our first gate, I was walking the dogs, there were a little ahead, but not much. I was walking towards them and said "boys, snake, here, now! there was a snake coming out of the trees across open gravel straight towards them, it had 50 acres or paddock to disappear into, nope it was meandering straight towards them even though they had ridden there minutes before, dropped their bikes and were happily jumping/walking around. It wasn't being aggressive or defensive just didn't care about the noise and movement it apparently does care about.

You never stop being on alert and you never stop scanning. You rarely see the trees, the sky the clouds the birds unless yous top walking and look up. Whilst you are walking around your eyes are scanning where you are going. They slow up in winter but it only takes one 20 odd degree day and they are out and active but even more grumpy.

Edited November 14, 2015 by OSoSwift

[Denis Carthy]

make noise, they will move out of the way.

ALL land snakes are deaf!

That said, i never realized before now venomous snakes were so common out there.

.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Denis Carthy

[Willem]

The GSD jumped about 6 ft in the air when it was shocked!

???...6 ft...that's 1.83 m...I saw the video now several times, but never saw a dog jumping 1.8 m through the air.

Jumping 6 feet in the air is a expression. Is English not your first language?

...ups, I gave it away...learned something new.

[Willem]

....Stamping your feet and making noise movement is going to do very little unless the snake close by is a shy one.

...than it must be my body odor that the browns and red belly don't like .... :D ...wrt tigers I'm not so sure as the ones I saw were dead...

[Willem]

make noise, they will move out of the way.

ALL land snakes are deaf!

That said, i never realized before now venomous snakes were so common out there.

.

snakes are not deaf!...they just have a different hearing system and hear via their jaws!

[Kavik]

I see about 1 snake a year in my backyard.

When I worked for WIRES in the summer there were so many calls about snakes.

[rusty&biscuit]

I have another question for those knowledgeable about the use of e collars - do dogs generally "get used to" a certain level of the stimulation and stop responding to it, meaning you need to increase the level to get the response again?

A lady at the dog park near where I'm staying has one her dog and she said today that she's had to up the level of the shock (her term) as the dog had started ignoring the lower level she had been using.

Just bumping this question as I'd really like to know the answer.

I would suggest there are individual differences SG - the research is very sparse.

Thanks TSD, sorry I missed replying to this before. This issue is something I would want to take into consideration if I was going to use an e-collar (and hopefully good trainers do) because it seems to me that if a dog does get used to a level and needs an increasingly high level of shock/stim/whatever to get results then it propably isn't a good tool to use.

I used e-collars in the states, they can be a great tool. You want to be working on the lowest level possible. So I have tried an e-collar myself, and it isn't a shock, or horrific at all. As others who have tried it will tell you (if they are working on their lowest level) it's just like a quick tingle that gets your attention. I used Dogtra collars as that's what the company I was interning for used - so the levels from 0-120 were constantly changing. In a quiet environment the dog could be on 8, but then outside with other dogs and cats, the lowest level that would get their attention would be 70. But it all depends on the individual dog. So I don't know what brand of collar she is using, but she may need to change the level at the dog park as that is a much more stimulating environment than a walk down the street, for example.