South Australia Legislation Change Re Electronic Collars

[Willem]

...some other thoughts: there seems to be a lot doubts that the 'electric shock' respectively the use of an e-collar will be beneficial for a dog regarding snake avoidance training and/or maybe regarding other training goals. If I go back to my comparison made at the beginning of the thread regarding the use of electrical fences for horses: strangely (?) horses and / or other cattle seem to handle the employment of those electrical tools pretty well without suffering long term damage?...how come?

[Kavik]

...some other thoughts: there seems to be a lot doubts that the 'electric shock' respectively the use of an e-collar will be beneficial for a dog regarding snake avoidance training and/or maybe regarding other training goals. If I go back to my comparison made at the beginning of the thread regarding the use of electrical fences for horses: strangely (?) horses and / or other cattle seem to handle the employment of those electrical tools pretty well without suffering long term damage?...how come?

Are we using electric collars around the necks of horses and cattle to train them now, the same as ecollars for dogs? I don't think we are?

They learn that the fence 'bites'. How strange would it seem to the dog that it gets 'bitten' and can't see any cause, and with an ecollar this bite will last as long as the button is being pressed.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Kavik

[The Spotted Devil]

...some other thoughts: there seems to be a lot doubts that the 'electric shock' respectively the use of an e-collar will be beneficial for a dog regarding snake avoidance training and/or maybe regarding other training goals. If I go back to my comparison made at the beginning of the thread regarding the use of electrical fences for horses: strangely (?) horses and / or other cattle seem to handle the employment of those electrical tools pretty well without suffering long term damage?...how come?

Firstly you're training a relatively simple behaviour. Secondly the animals have a strong visual cue so they can both predict and control the shock. There is a lot of concern about the use of electric prodders.

[Simply Grand]

I have another question for those knowledgeable about the use of e collars - do dogs generally "get used to" a certain level of the stimulation and stop responding to it, meaning you need to increase the level to get the response again?

A lady at the dog park near where I'm staying has one her dog and she said today that she's had to up the level of the shock (her term) as the dog had started ignoring the lower level she had been using.

Just bumping this question as I'd really like to know the answer.

[The Spotted Devil]

I have another question for those knowledgeable about the use of e collars - do dogs generally "get used to" a certain level of the stimulation and stop responding to it, meaning you need to increase the level to get the response again?

A lady at the dog park near where I'm staying has one her dog and she said today that she's had to up the level of the shock (her term) as the dog had started ignoring the lower level she had been using.

Just bumping this question as I'd really like to know the answer.

I would suggest there are individual differences SG - the research is very sparse.

[Willem]

...some other thoughts: there seems to be a lot doubts that the 'electric shock' respectively the use of an e-collar will be beneficial for a dog regarding snake avoidance training and/or maybe regarding other training goals. If I go back to my comparison made at the beginning of the thread regarding the use of electrical fences for horses: strangely (?) horses and / or other cattle seem to handle the employment of those electrical tools pretty well without suffering long term damage?...how come?

Are we using electric collars around the necks of horses and cattle to train them now, the same as ecollars for dogs? I don't think we are?

They learn that the fence 'bites'. How strange would it seem to the dog that it gets 'bitten' and can't see any cause, and with an ecollar this bite will last as long as the button is being pressed.

...horse sees fence = pain, dog sees snake = pain ....what's the difference?

[The Spotted Devil]

...some other thoughts: there seems to be a lot doubts that the 'electric shock' respectively the use of an e-collar will be beneficial for a dog regarding snake avoidance training and/or maybe regarding other training goals. If I go back to my comparison made at the beginning of the thread regarding the use of electrical fences for horses: strangely (?) horses and / or other cattle seem to handle the employment of those electrical tools pretty well without suffering long term damage?...how come?

Are we using electric collars around the necks of horses and cattle to train them now, the same as ecollars for dogs? I don't think we are?

They learn that the fence 'bites'. How strange would it seem to the dog that it gets 'bitten' and can't see any cause, and with an ecollar this bite will last as long as the button is being pressed.

...horse sees fence = pain, dog sees snake = pain ....what's the difference?

Because touching the fence gives an immediate shock. Associative learning at its finest. It's not quite as clear cut with the snake.

[Willem]

...some other thoughts: there seems to be a lot doubts that the 'electric shock' respectively the use of an e-collar will be beneficial for a dog regarding snake avoidance training and/or maybe regarding other training goals. If I go back to my comparison made at the beginning of the thread regarding the use of electrical fences for horses: strangely (?) horses and / or other cattle seem to handle the employment of those electrical tools pretty well without suffering long term damage?...how come?

Are we using electric collars around the necks of horses and cattle to train them now, the same as ecollars for dogs? I don't think we are?

They learn that the fence 'bites'. How strange would it seem to the dog that it gets 'bitten' and can't see any cause, and with an ecollar this bite will last as long as the button is being pressed.

...horse sees fence = pain, dog sees snake = pain ....what's the difference?

The horse can run away from the shock but the dog can't because it's attached to them?

dog sees snake ...trainer hit the button while dog's focus is on snake - outch...dog moves / runs away from snake...I really can't see a big difference?!?

[JulesP]

Horses are flight animals so they tend to run away from danger. Dogs may choose to fight.

[The Spotted Devil]

...some other thoughts: there seems to be a lot doubts that the 'electric shock' respectively the use of an e-collar will be beneficial for a dog regarding snake avoidance training and/or maybe regarding other training goals. If I go back to my comparison made at the beginning of the thread regarding the use of electrical fences for horses: strangely (?) horses and / or other cattle seem to handle the employment of those electrical tools pretty well without suffering long term damage?...how come?

Are we using electric collars around the necks of horses and cattle to train them now, the same as ecollars for dogs? I don't think we are?

They learn that the fence 'bites'. How strange would it seem to the dog that it gets 'bitten' and can't see any cause, and with an ecollar this bite will last as long as the button is being pressed.

...horse sees fence = pain, dog sees snake = pain ....what's the difference?

The horse can run away from the shock but the dog can't because it's attached to them?

dog sees snake ...trainer hit the button while dog's focus is on snake - outch...dog moves / runs away from snake...I really can't see a big difference?!?

There's no guarantee the dog associates the snake with the shock. Experiencing pain when LOOKING at something is not part of a dog's normal range of experience. I wonder also if it coming from the neck is a an odd association too - if you touch something it hurts where you touch it on the body eg paw, nose.

Edited November 14, 2015 by The Spotted Devil

[Willem]

Horses are flight animals so they tend to run away from danger. Dogs may choose to fight.

when you watch the video from the Perth guys it shows that the first step is to let the dog sniff different locations where he can find treats...one of the locations / holes has the snake, when the dog gets there the trainer hits the button. The dog even doesn't see the snake...he just get the scent. 'Never say never', but with a well thought out trainings methodology - and what the guys are showing in the video is very convincing - I don't believe that such an approach would trigger the fight instinct of the dog.

If the dog really would get into fight mode while doing the above, then this methodology is not for him, but I doubt that this single e-shock would damage the dog or would make bad things worse.

[Willem]

There probably isn't provided it's done that way. If you're asking why is the collar illegal when electric fences aren't, then I would suggest it's because the fence isn't attached to the horse and most horses aren't stupid enough to keep touching an electric fence after they get shocked a couple of times. Dogs can't choose not to avoid the shocks if we put it around their neck and someone activates it by pressing a button. People who don't know what they're doing might use it at too high a setting, press it for too long, use it too often or at the wrong time etc. The dog has no control over that whereas the horse does. I really don't have an issue with one being used properly and skillfully for snake avoidance training but I'm not comfortable with everyone having access to them or with them being used on dogs with anxiety issues.

yes, they can .... that is the whole point of the training...dog sees snake and is too close = pain, dog keeps distance from snake = no pain.

[Simply Grand]

Horses are flight animals so they tend to run away from danger. Dogs may choose to fight.

when you watch the video from the Perth guys it shows that the first step is to let the dog sniff different locations where he can find treats...one of the locations / holes has the snake, when the dog gets there the trainer hits the button. The dog even doesn't see the snake...he just get the scent. 'Never say never', but with a well thought out trainings methodology - and what the guys are showing in the video is very convincing - I don't believe that such an approach would trigger the fight instinct of the dog.

If the dog really would get into fight mode while doing the above, then this methodology is not for him, but I doubt that this single e-shock would damage the dog or would make bad things worse.

Hmm, but then how can the trainer be sure that the snake's scent is what the dog is focused on when the shock is delivered? I can see what Corvus is saying about unitended fallout in that case.

With an electric fence it seems much more clear cut, the animal is touching the ground (which touches all the time without experiencing a shock) and the fence, it feels the shock come through it's nose where it is touching, it stops touching the fence and the shock stops, so it is quite clear what the action is that causes the shock.

For a dog sniffing around smelling and touching all sorts of things and the shock coming from a third place (the neck) it could be much less clear.

[Willem]

hm,...according to the link above legality of e-collars in different states: 'electric collars associated with canine invisible boundaries' are actual legal in NSW:

Section 16 of the Act, Section 13 and Schedule 1 of the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (General) Regulation 1996 and Schedule 1 make the use of electric dog collars illegal. One exception to this rule is electric collars associated with canine invisible boundaries. These are not illegal provided the canine invisible boundary is used to confine dogs, but only used inside a fence through which dogs cannot pass and that is not less than 1.5 metres high.

...so, instead of fencing the dog we just have to 'fence' the snake respectively separate the dog from the snake by using this invisible boundaries...and suddenly we have the same training and trainings effect and it is even legal!

[Simply Grand]

Also, I'm still not clear on whether the modern collars are supposed to actually cause pain, which proponents seem to be saying they don't (see Denis Carthy's post about TENS machines), or more of a cue in the form of a low level stimulation.

[Simply Grand]

hm,...according to the link above legality of e-collars in different states: 'electric collars associated with canine invisible boundaries' are actual legal in NSW:

Section 16 of the Act, Section 13 and Schedule 1 of the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (General) Regulation 1996 and Schedule 1 make the use of electric dog collars illegal. One exception to this rule is electric collars associated with canine invisible boundaries. These are not illegal provided the canine invisible boundary is used to confine dogs, but only used inside a fence through which dogs cannot pass and that is not less than 1.5 metres high.

...so, instead of fencing the dog we just have to 'fence' the snake respectively separate the dog from the snake by using this invisible boundaries...and suddenly we have the same training and trainings effect and it is even legal!

It's not the same training though. The use of electric fencing for dogs, as per your post above, also requires a physical fence that the dog can clearly see and is always there, not like a snake, and it goes back to what I said above about electric fences.

[Willem]

Hmm, but then how can the trainer be sure that the snake's scent is what the dog is focused on when the shock is delivered? I can see what Corvus is saying about unitended fallout in that case.

With an electric fence it seems much more clear cut, the animal is touching the ground (which touches all the time without experiencing a shock) and the fence, it feels the shock come through it's nose where it is touching, it stops touching the fence and the shock stops, so it is quite clear what the action is that causes the shock.

For a dog sniffing around smelling and touching all sorts of things and the shock coming from a third place (the neck) it could be much less clear.

...here is the

of the video from the Perth guys again...I can't see a major flaw in this approach...

[Simply Grand]

Hmm, but then how can the trainer be sure that the snake's scent is what the dog is focused on when the shock is delivered? I can see what Corvus is saying about unitended fallout in that case.

With an electric fence it seems much more clear cut, the animal is touching the ground (which touches all the time without experiencing a shock) and the fence, it feels the shock come through it's nose where it is touching, it stops touching the fence and the shock stops, so it is quite clear what the action is that causes the shock.

For a dog sniffing around smelling and touching all sorts of things and the shock coming from a third place (the neck) it could be much less clear.

...here is the

of the video from the Perth guys again...I can't see a major flaw in this approach...

I can certainly see how the training can work but I actually don't find that particular video clip convincing. The corgi and the shepherd/kelpie looking dog (Tracker?) appear to be reacting to the shock, not the snake, which I get is how the training goes initially but that video doesn't show the outcome of the training IMO. The Doberman leaps back from the scent of the snake but they don't say whether she was shocked then or not.

[Kavik]

The GSD jumped about 6 ft in the air when it was shocked!

[Denis Carthy]

Snook

In Australia, deadly snakes are everywhere and the snake catchers are kept extremely busy in suburbia, right through to the suburbs right next the the CBD and have even been called out to the CBD itself. These snakes could end up in anyone's back yard and are in our local parks and where our walking trails are. We have recently had warnings about several being sighted on popular local beaches so need to take care there too. Last year, 6 eastern brown snakes were seen within 30 minutes in a suburbwn dog park about an hour away from me Roughly 3000 people are bitten by these snakes every year and the estimated figure for pets is at least double that, if not more, as apparently the pets who die before they get to the vet are not usually included in the stats, presumably because they didn't receive anti-venom. Moat dog owners do not have access to snake avoidance training using ecollars because they are illegal in most states and I would suggest that most dog owners don't even know that there is such a thing as snake avoidance training. This forum is not representative of the average dog owner in Australia. It representative of the people who are very passionate about their dogs and often about dogs in general.

ETA: If everyone who did not take steps to snake proof their dogs and who live somewhere where their dogs could get bitten, was not allowed to own a dog, as it currently stands in Australia, only a handful of people here would own dogs.

OK, thanks for all that, i had no idea folks were talking about the whole country,I was thinking about some areas of Oz, no more than that.

I once lived in s africa & i was making informed guesswork from there, venomous snakes are there & the black mamba is reputed to be most lethal of all snakes but thats mainly in Natal & maybe up around the kruger park region, the cites seem not to have any problems with them. From what you have said s africa is not comparitive at all. Must say i am surprised they are all over Oz like that.

.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Denis Carthy