Weasels Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 But aside from 'high risk/last resort' situations, who wouldn't want to take the quickest possible route to the same (or better) result? I find it interesting that dog training is probably one of the only areas where some people seem to think that doing things a harder, longer way means the end result is better. I always want to achieve results with my dogs and others in the fastest possible time frame. I would think there was something wrong with my handling if I plugged away at the same method for a long time with no or little result. Why do people choose to be vegetarian, or boycott Nestle, or decide not to smack their kids? We map out our personal lines in the sand on how we interact with the world and try to live by them as best we can. Some people choose to draw the line at yelling, some at collars, others at pliers on the ears. We constantly weigh up which course of action is most acceptable to everyone's wellbeing and will all come to different conclusions about how that path looks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raineth Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Yeah in the video the dog gets a shock, is alarmed and jumps back and then is praised for running away from the snake/to the owner. I can see the value in it learning such a response but only in specific situations or training. Snakes, yes. Day to day obedience? No. Then I can see it causing issues and the dog catching on to the shock and the collar. In agreement with snook I think - I wouldn't expect this to be something that needs enough refresher courses that the dog will catch on or be desensitised or start to link the collar to anxiety issues from the once off training every couple of years. But then I also wouldn't expect to use this collar as a training method outside of something as high risk as a snake encounter. Most things you can train with time and reinforcement but snake avoidance is something I would prefer done "hard and fast". If that makes sense /sighing and continues the clicker training on smell snake = return to owner as better than nothing I guess. What are you using as a snake stimulus? I am curious to know :) The local best friends usually has some snakes. One of the snake containers has little ?air? holes at about dog head height so when there's a snake in it we "casually" walk past and I click her when she shows disinterest or actively moves away/towards me in response. I do not think this training will hold strong if the snake is moving and therefore interesting/chaseable. But am hoping if she stumbles across a snake at rest she will redirect and come over to me. Or hesitate. Any second gained is good I think I think there are ppl who do similar with snake skins. Oh very interesting! :) yeah I think that's a pretty good idea actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 But aside from 'high risk/last resort' situations, who wouldn't want to take the quickest possible route to the same (or better) result? I find it interesting that dog training is probably one of the only areas where some people seem to think that doing things a harder, longer way means the end result is better. I always want to achieve results with my dogs and others in the fastest possible time frame. I would think there was something wrong with my handling if I plugged away at the same method for a long time with no or little result. Why do people choose to be vegetarian, or boycott Nestle, or decide not to smack their kids? We map out our personal lines in the sand on how we interact with the world and try to live by them as best we can. Some people choose to draw the line at yelling, some at collars, others at pliers on the ears. We constantly weigh up which course of action is most acceptable to everyone's wellbeing and will all come to different conclusions about how that path looks. I think that the use of e-collars requires EXCEPTIONALLY good skills and timing to be used properly. Most people can't deliver a food reward in a timely way...whether or not the e-collar works more quickly is arguable but I think the risk of fallout is much greater. Particularly because it's about the dog's perception about what it is being punished for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weasels Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 I think that the use of e-collars requires EXCEPTIONALLY good skills and timing to be used properly. Most people can't deliver a food reward in a timely way...whether or not the e-collar works more quickly is arguable but I think the risk of fallout is much greater. Particularly because it's about the dog's perception about what it is being punished for. That's pretty much my position too. Plus I don't trust the equipment to work consistently and not to malfunction. Plus I have sensitive dogs. Weez was bitten by an electric fence 2 years ago and he still acts unpredictably in the area it happened. The physical pain would have sucked but it's the confusion and that really messed with him, especially since paddocks used to be one of his few happy places. So although we have a high risk of snakebite I rely on mowing mowing mowing, keeping the prey population down, and supervision. Any training to leave reptiles alone we can safely get in is just a bonus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 But aside from 'high risk/last resort' situations, who wouldn't want to take the quickest possible route to the same (or better) result? I find it interesting that dog training is probably one of the only areas where some people seem to think that doing things a harder, longer way means the end result is better. I always want to achieve results with my dogs and others in the fastest possible time frame. I would think there was something wrong with my handling if I plugged away at the same method for a long time with no or little result. Why do people choose to be vegetarian, or boycott Nestle, or decide not to smack their kids? We map out our personal lines in the sand on how we interact with the world and try to live by them as best we can. Some people choose to draw the line at yelling, some at collars, others at pliers on the ears. We constantly weigh up which course of action is most acceptable to everyone's wellbeing and will all come to different conclusions about how that path looks. I think that the use of e-collars requires EXCEPTIONALLY good skills and timing to be used properly. Most people can't deliver a food reward in a timely way...whether or not the e-collar works more quickly is arguable but I think the risk of fallout is much greater. Particularly because it's about the dog's perception about what it is being punished for. Agreed. It also depends on the dog. Some of mine there is no way I would use one,others would be okay. In this instance with this dog it was a fast effective way to train for snakes as we have a lot of them. We have 5 acres fully mowed, no small creatures, no flower beds no wood piles no anything and we still get a number of them. Also when he works he is out in paddocks with lots of grass and cover. Generally he would be moving too fast for a snake to have time to strike and connect with him, but not always and it is a big risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaznHotAussies Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 On the farm, they bought an electric collar (as an aid to teach the dogs not to chase sheep I think?) and my husband decided to give it a shot on himself first (because his dad said nobody was to use it unless they tried it out). So he put it up to the highest setting and says it's more of a longer/stronger vibration than an electric shock. Mildly uncomfortable. So with that in mind and the fact that I'd rather HAVE a dog than lose a dog due to not wanting to cause it any discomfort ever... I'm ALL FOR using an electric shock collar to teach them that snake = scary things & to avoid. Have heard plenty of success stories for dogs learning an aversion to chasing sheep/cattle/horses, bobtails, chooks, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 (edited) On the farm, they bought an electric collar (as an aid to teach the dogs not to chase sheep I think?) and my husband decided to give it a shot on himself first (because his dad said nobody was to use it unless they tried it out). So he put it up to the highest setting and says it's more of a longer/stronger vibration than an electric shock. Mildly uncomfortable. So with that in mind and the fact that I'd rather HAVE a dog than lose a dog due to not wanting to cause it any discomfort ever... I'm ALL FOR using an electric shock collar to teach them that snake = scary things & to avoid. Have heard plenty of success stories for dogs learning an aversion to chasing sheep/cattle/horses, bobtails, chooks, etc. The modern collars are much milder - but as someone who studies stress and behaviour in livestock and companion animals, aversion learning only works when the animal can identify, control and modify its behaviour to avoid the consequence. Otherwise you just get learned helplessness and/or a chronic stress response. It's not dependent on the punisher per se but on the animal's ability to control the environment. I see it often enough unfortunately. Edited October 28, 2015 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaznHotAussies Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 On the farm, they bought an electric collar (as an aid to teach the dogs not to chase sheep I think?) and my husband decided to give it a shot on himself first (because his dad said nobody was to use it unless they tried it out). So he put it up to the highest setting and says it's more of a longer/stronger vibration than an electric shock. Mildly uncomfortable. So with that in mind and the fact that I'd rather HAVE a dog than lose a dog due to not wanting to cause it any discomfort ever... I'm ALL FOR using an electric shock collar to teach them that snake = scary things & to avoid. Have heard plenty of success stories for dogs learning an aversion to chasing sheep/cattle/horses, bobtails, chooks, etc. The modern collars are much milder - but as someone who studies stress and behaviour in livestock and companion animals, aversion learning only works when the animal can identify, control and modify its behaviour to avoid the consequence. Otherwise you just get learned helplessness and/or a chronic stress response. It's not dependent on the punisher per se but on the animal's ability to control the environment. I see it often enough unfortunately. Ok, interesting. Is that kind of like letting the dog make a move towards said object, get a shock & then move away, learning that moving away from the snake/object makes the shock stop? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 (edited) On the farm, they bought an electric collar (as an aid to teach the dogs not to chase sheep I think?) and my husband decided to give it a shot on himself first (because his dad said nobody was to use it unless they tried it out). So he put it up to the highest setting and says it's more of a longer/stronger vibration than an electric shock. Mildly uncomfortable. So with that in mind and the fact that I'd rather HAVE a dog than lose a dog due to not wanting to cause it any discomfort ever... I'm ALL FOR using an electric shock collar to teach them that snake = scary things & to avoid. Have heard plenty of success stories for dogs learning an aversion to chasing sheep/cattle/horses, bobtails, chooks, etc. The modern collars are much milder - but as someone who studies stress and behaviour in livestock and companion animals, aversion learning only works when the animal can identify, control and modify its behaviour to avoid the consequence. Otherwise you just get learned helplessness and/or a chronic stress response. It's not dependent on the punisher per se but on the animal's ability to control the environment. I see it often enough unfortunately. Ok, interesting. Is that kind of like letting the dog make a move towards said object, get a shock & then move away, learning that moving away from the snake/object makes the shock stop? Yes but the criteria need to be crystal clear and you don't continuously shock the dog until it moves away - which is where the vast majority of humans fail to get it right! Is it ok if the dog stops? If it turns sideways? If it turns away? Edited October 28, 2015 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgrubber Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 (edited) how about this: ...Punishment is the authoritative imposition of an undesirable or unpleasant outcome upon a group or individual, in response to a particular action or behaviour that is deemed unacceptable or threatening to some norm ... :) ...no, not my wording, but Wikipedia :D ... Correction is not, or should not be, a euphamism for punishment. Correction has a place in training. Punishment does not. An unskilled trainer may simply punish when he intends to correct . . . in which case he is simply being cruel and not actually teaching the dog anything :D . try google and read through some other definitions for punish . . . many of the definitions you find use words like retribution, inflict, cause to suffer. One definition I turned up said: "treat (someone) in an unfairly harsh way." Another: "to subject to pain, loss, confinement, death, etc., as a penalty for some offense, transgression, or foul". The Wikipedia definition above does not specify a motive for punishment. The motive for correction is implicit in the word . . . to correct. Dictionary definitions of correct generally say something like "put right" . . . or "free from error" and seldom say anything about inflicting pain or unpleasant outcomes. Cruel and unusual punishment is a much heard phrase (due to the US Constitution) . . . I've never heard anyone speak of "cruel and unusual correction". You make corrections to a machine when it is off track. Punishing a machine would be pointless. I would say a spanking is a punishment . . . but not a correction . . . it tends to be done when a parent is angry and isn't particularly good at preventing a repeat of the behavior, though it may cause fear. etc., etc., etc. Edited October 28, 2015 by sandgrubber Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 (edited) Sorry sandgrubber but your definition of correction vs punishment is as sound as Wiki and is based on human interpretation and emotion. I think it's more helpful to use the language of learning theory. Effective positive punishment decreases the likelihood of a behaviour occurring again. It may cause fear. It may cause chronic stress if pushed too far. If it didn't change the behaviour it's simply abuse. A correction is when you fix a spelling mistake. Everyone thinks their dog knows when it's being "corrected" or punished for doing something wrong. I can assure you that's very rare because human timing, criteria and perception are generally quite woeful. Edited October 28, 2015 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 I think that the use of e-collars requires EXCEPTIONALLY good skills and timing to be used properly. Most people can't deliver a food reward in a timely way...whether or not the e-collar works more quickly is arguable but I think the risk of fallout is much greater. Particularly because it's about the dog's perception about what it is being punished for. I have to respectfully disagree. IME it's much easier for the average dog owner to get results with a tool that gives them leverage and control like an ecollar than it is for them to get the same results with rewards. I am pretty skilled at using rewards. It's taken a long time to develop my skill to the point where I can train complex behavior easily and quickly with reward with the accuracy and precision I want. But If you can't teach the average pet owner success using rewards in the time frame they require the fall out can be that the dog is euthanized, dumped at the pound etc. IME it's very easy to teach the average person how to use an ecollar properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 I have to respectfully disagree. IME it's much easier for the average dog owner to get results with a tool that gives them leverage and control like an ecollar than it is for them to get the same results with rewards. I am pretty skilled at using rewards. It's taken a long time to develop my skill to the point where I can train complex behavior easily and quickly with reward with the accuracy and precision I want. But If you can't teach the average pet owner success using rewards in the time frame they require the fall out can be that the dog is euthanized, dumped at the pound etc. IME it's very easy to teach the average person how to use an ecollar properly. huski, I think I know where you coming from, however, you are assuming the correct and well-thought-out usage of the collar. The problem I see with people today is that nearly everyone is tempted to do shortcuts to save time; everything has to be faster, louder, better ...and more convenient. And that's the catch. People will try it to 'correct' any kind of misbehavior because they don't take their time and think why the dog is doing it and/or what causing it...the people want to have a solution now, it seems to be their nature to press buttons without thinking, or even reading manuals...we are well conditioned (via TV, commercials) to jump on something that works 'faster', 'better', however we don't want to read the small print. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 That's pretty much my position too. Plus I don't trust the equipment to work consistently and not to malfunction. Plus I have sensitive dogs. Weez was bitten by an electric fence 2 years ago and he still acts unpredictably in the area it happened. The physical pain would have sucked but it's the confusion and that really messed with him, especially since paddocks used to be one of his few happy places. So although we have a high risk of snakebite I rely on mowing mowing mowing, keeping the prey population down, and supervision. Any training to leave reptiles alone we can safely get in is just a bonus. I am sure you know this, but just for the benefit of anyone else reading the thread who doesn't, there is an enormous difference between the output of an electric fence and a remote training collar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 The one time I did try an ecolllar (at K9Pro seminar), Diesel shut down completely and wanted to hide in the nearest crate . He has skin conditions and so sensitive skin and particularly hates flies (wouldn't work at all if he gets bothered by them), and my guess is that the ecollar seemed like fly bites to him. I can guarantee that food rewards won't make him react like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted October 28, 2015 Share Posted October 28, 2015 Whilst I have used them and would use them again I certainly don't think it's easy to teach novices how to use them correctly and that's where the risk of fallout increases. An incorrectly used e collar has far greater fallout than incorrectly used food. And it's not failure to use a certain tool that ends with dogs at pounds and shelters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 (edited) Whilst I have used them and would use them again I certainly don't think it's easy to teach novices how to use them correctly and that's where the risk of fallout increases. An incorrectly used e collar has far greater fallout than incorrectly used food. And it's not failure to use a certain tool that ends with dogs at pounds and shelters. I agree, it isn't tool related, it is failure to get results that makes owners give up on training their dogs. Edited October 29, 2015 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 It's also about empowering owners to problem solve and indentify issues - lots of good dog trainers out there. Not so many who can train both dogs and people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Yes but failure to get results can be for a multitude of reasons not all of which can be addressed by different trainers or training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Huski do you think e collars have a higher risk of negative fallout? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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