Willem Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 There are lots of things that are dangerous behaviours that need to be addressed not unlike snake training - aggression, for one, can be extremely dangerous and time imperative. But aside from 'high risk/last resort' situations, who wouldn't want to take the quickest possible route to the same (or better) result? I find it interesting that dog training is probably one of the only areas where some people seem to think that doing things a harder, longer way means the end result is better. I always want to achieve results with my dogs and others in the fastest possible time frame. I would think there was something wrong with my handling if I plugged away at the same method for a long time with no or little result. ...maybe most of the owners just like to spend the time with their dog(s), well, at least that's the case with me. Yes, it is important that she makes progress, but it is not the most important thing. Our BC is very energetic, so all these agility and obedience classes and the training at home is also to keep her mind and body busy. If all this would be achievable just by a push of a button it would take a lot of fun out of it...I just like to work with my dog... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 ....As this type of training isn't allowed here in SA, I can only go by what I'm seeing in videos and personal anecdotes as opposed to seeing it in real life. Also, from reading up on modern e-collars I can't see them in a bad light when used responsibly. ...and I still don't know why electrical horse fences are allowed (correct me if I'm wrong and they are illegal too)...so you can 'torture' horses with electrical shocks (and every other creature that touches it), but no dogs...go figure.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 (edited) ...maybe most of the owners just like to spend the time with their dog(s), well, at least that's the case with me. Yes, it is important that she makes progress, but it is not the most important thing. Our BC is very energetic, so all these agility and obedience classes and the training at home is also to keep her mind and body busy. If all this would be achievable just by a push of a button it would take a lot of fun out of it...I just like to work with my dog... I love training my dogs too, and I would spend more time with them training them than the vast majority of people. But there is nothing wrong with pet owners who want to take the easier option. A lot of people enjoy their dogs more, once training issues like leash pulling and recall are addressed, it means they can take their dogs out more, give them more freedom, and enjoy spending more time with them :) Edited October 27, 2015 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 ...maybe most of the owners just like to spend the time with their dog(s), well, at least that's the case with me. Yes, it is important that she makes progress, but it is not the most important thing. Our BC is very energetic, so all these agility and obedience classes and the training at home is also to keep her mind and body busy. If all this would be achievable just by a push of a button it would take a lot of fun out of it...I just like to work with my dog... I love training my dogs too, and I would spend more time with them training them than the vast majority of people. But there is nothing wrong with pet owners who want to take the easier option. A lot of people enjoy their dogs more, once training issues like leash pulling and recall are addressed, it means they can take their dogs out more, give them more freedom, and enjoy spending more time with them :) ...yeah, but it is like a soccer game where you are 5 goals ahead and only 2 minutes left to play :D ...lacks some excitement :laugh: ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Is the comment about electric fences for horses in jest? The damage horses can do to themselves going through or playing around and leaning on non electric fences is life threatening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 ....As this type of training isn't allowed here in SA, I can only go by what I'm seeing in videos and personal anecdotes as opposed to seeing it in real life. Also, from reading up on modern e-collars I can't see them in a bad light when used responsibly. ...and I still don't know why electrical horse fences are allowed (correct me if I'm wrong and they are illegal too)...so you can 'torture' horses with electrical shocks (and every other creature that touches it), but no dogs...go figure.... If you'd ever seen what a horse can do in wire fence, you'd know the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 I just want to point out that the same principle (electrical shock) is used for the benefit of horses while on the other side adopting the same tool for snake avoidance training for dogs is illegal in some states - the thoughts of the people behind those laws are just not consistent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kajirin Posted October 27, 2015 Author Share Posted October 27, 2015 In all honesty I've been zapped by many electric fences and it's like a ping but not painful...feels more like pressure on the skin which radiates out. Dogs next door have been zapped by the goat electric fencing, they have never been back near the fencing since to try and climb under. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 There are lots of things that are dangerous behaviours that need to be addressed not unlike snake training - aggression, for one, can be extremely dangerous and time imperative. But aside from 'high risk/last resort' situations, who wouldn't want to take the quickest possible route to the same (or better) result? I find it interesting that dog training is probably one of the only areas where some people seem to think that doing things a harder, longer way means the end result is better. I always want to achieve results with my dogs and others in the fastest possible time frame. I would think there was something wrong with my handling if I plugged away at the same method for a long time with no or little result. I guess in my mind, because it's learning under the same theory, when it comes to using aversives it's a bit like teaching a child the stove top is hot by letting them touch it vs telling them 10 times "don't touch the stove" then saying "good job" when you see them move away from the stove voluntarily. They probably only need to touch the hot stove and feel the consequence once to learn the lesson, and in the big picture it wouldn't necessarily cause much trauma, but I'd still rather they didn't do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgrubber Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 The collar delivers an electric shock, why object to the term shock collar? I see a place for aversives in training but I think it's a cop out to avoid the use of the actual terms - "vibration" instead of shock, "correction" instead of punishment. If trainers are confident in their methods why not be open about what those methods are? IMO if it ain't shocking it ain't a shock. I have used e-collars. I find them more trouble than they are worth. But at the low settings that are used for most training (not aversion training), they are about as shocking as a light pin prick. My dogs were far more bothered by the vibration mode (which is a vibration, rather like you mobile phone's vibrate mode) than by the electric signal. As for 'correction' vs 'punishment' . . . a correction is done to correct, systematically, and unlike a punishment, must not be anger-based or aimed to hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Scientifically a punishment is a consequence that reduces a behaviour recurring. That's how I'm using the term. "anger based" or "designed to hurt" is very subjective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 how about this: ...Punishment is the authoritative imposition of an undesirable or unpleasant outcome upon a group or individual, in response to a particular action or behaviour that is deemed unacceptable or threatening to some norm ... :) ...no, not my wording, but Wikipedia :D ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 (edited) Yes well Wikipedia would know better than decades of scientific research :) Edited coz I'm not sure exactly when the research was started. Edited October 27, 2015 by Simply Grand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 The collar delivers an electric shock, why object to the term shock collar? I see a place for aversives in training but I think it's a cop out to avoid the use of the actual terms - "vibration" instead of shock, "correction" instead of punishment. If trainers are confident in their methods why not be open about what those methods are? IMO if it ain't shocking it ain't a shock. I have used e-collars. I find them more trouble than they are worth. But at the low settings that are used for most training (not aversion training), they are about as shocking as a light pin prick. My dogs were far more bothered by the vibration mode (which is a vibration, rather like you mobile phone's vibrate mode) than by the electric signal. As for 'correction' vs 'punishment' . . . a correction is done to correct, systematically, and unlike a punishment, must not be anger-based or aimed to hurt. I disagree. A positive punishment is something you add that decreases the likelihood of that behaviour occurring again. Changing the language to "corrections" muddies the waters. Negative reinforcement is about taking something away to increase the likelihood of that behaviour occurring again. Both can be aversive with or without being noxious. Both can apply to e-collars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Exactly TSD. Whatever people think or say. It's likely we all or almost all use punishment in our training and interactions with our dogs. Just like most of us use reinforcement (a consequence that increases a behaviour). They are what they are. Why not use the correct terms? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 We have used one with our working dog. So far it seems to have the desired effect. Not a run of the mill thing I would use but I have seen countless dogs (and other animals) bitten by snakes. Fought for the lives of many, breathed down a tube to save ones life and many other things. A period of training with a shock collar compared to a snake bite. The collar woukd win every time, no question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 ....As this type of training isn't allowed here in SA, I can only go by what I'm seeing in videos and personal anecdotes as opposed to seeing it in real life. Also, from reading up on modern e-collars I can't see them in a bad light when used responsibly. ...and I still don't know why electrical horse fences are allowed (correct me if I'm wrong and they are illegal too)...so you can 'torture' horses with electrical shocks (and every other creature that touches it), but no dogs...go figure.... This shows me you have no idea about horses or electric fences Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 To be fair, I think Willem is saying he sees a place for both electric fences and collars, and both should legal, he is just using sarcasm to do so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 (edited) To be fair, I think Willem is saying he sees a place for both electric fences and collars, and both should legal, he is just using sarcasm to do so... Thanks...I thought it was obvious; I have nothing against electric farm fences - zapped countless times when younger and we pulled each other close to the fence and tried to shock each other so I know it won't harm a horse (or a dog...)...so yes, I just wanted to point out the contradiction in these laws. You actually could legally confine your dog in a small compound using an electrical fence, but if you want to use a electric collar for training it is illegal ....it is like allowing you to use a hammer to built a carport but you can't use it to built a cubby house ...it just doesn't make sense! Edited October 27, 2015 by Willem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Posted October 27, 2015 Share Posted October 27, 2015 Never felt what one of these collars do so can anyone enlighten me as to what the highest setting can do to the dog ? No use asking about lower settings as the highest setting is on there it can be used & would be by some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now