South Australia Legislation Change Re Electronic Collars

[huski]

I'm not a huge fan of shock collars as a regular training tool or for use with anxiety related issues, as I think there are much better ways to do things. However, I think you have to weigh up the reason you're using it with the possible outcome of not using it. In this case, I'd much rather subject my dog to some short term training with it to teach him to keep his distance from snakes, than end up with a critically ill or dead dog. Given the prevalence of deadly snakes in Australia and in particular, brown snakes that seem to be absolutely everywhere, I think it would be worth the approval being granted specifically for snake avoidance training. I can't think of any positive training methods that would be as effective and likely to be adhered to in the absence of a dog's owner.

I wouldn't use it for anything else - I compare it with an antibiotic: it becomes a blunt weapon if used freely. I guess if such a collar is used for other training, with time the dog would figure out that the collar is something 'special', and might behave different when not wearing the collar. The dog should associate the shock with the snake, not with the collar. So I believe it is only justified using it when there is no other practical way of training possible as it is the case with snakes.

I think a lot of people if they saw how modern e-collar training works would change their minds about it.

I see no difference between using e-collars to train things like snake avoidance, which is a safety issue, and things like recall, which is also a safety issue.

Both could be trained with other approaches, but using an e-collar is probably one of the easiest, and most reliable methods for achieving results.

That's not to say everyone should use an e-collar but there are many applications for it other than just snake avoidance training.

[Kavik]

Just heard about a dog who was PTS, due to behaviour caused by misuse of an ecollar during supervised training with an instructor

[huski]

Just heard about a dog who was PTS, due to behaviour caused by misuse of an ecollar during supervised training with an instructor

Yes I saw that post too. Sadly could have happened with any tool, when you have a handler who is misusing (or abusing) it. Any tool can be misused, I don't think the e-collar played any real part in that situation.

I have seen literally 100s of dogs trained with e-collars, I have used them myself for years, like anything, abuse is in the user not the tool.

Edited October 27, 2015 by huski

[Kajirin]

I wonder if the training would be effective enough to last the dog for life, or would it have to be repeated, probably annually...just to remind the dog. Just thinking, if the dog receives the training & then comes into close proximity to a few snakes along the way & finds, surprise, surprise....I didn't get zapped...if the training would wear off & the dogs natural curiosity & prey drive would start to creep back in.

...in this video

they mention a refreshing course after a 'couple of years'...whatever this means....I guess every 2 years would be good?...you might not even have to use the collar, just a checkup on how the dog responses when seeing or sniffing the snake.

You probably would need refresher training, to ensure avoidance is still exhibited.

[Willem]

I wouldn't use it for anything else - I compare it with an antibiotic: it becomes a blunt weapon if used freely. I guess if such a collar is used for other training, with time the dog would figure out that the collar is something 'special', and might behave different when not wearing the collar. The dog should associate the shock with the snake, not with the collar. So I believe it is only justified using it when there is no other practical way of training possible as it is the case with snakes.

I think a lot of people if they saw how modern e-collar training works would change their minds about it.

I see no difference between using e-collars to train things like snake avoidance, which is a safety issue, and things like recall, which is also a safety issue.

Both could be trained with other approaches, but using an e-collar is probably one of the easiest, and most reliable methods for achieving results.

That's not to say everyone should use an e-collar but there are many applications for it other than just snake avoidance training.

I'm sure the technic is pretty advanced and safe - the point is that I want this 'weapon' against snake bites as sharp as possible; I believe my dog is pretty smart and it won't take long till she figures out that she only gets a shock / stimulation when she is wearing this special collar respectively when I'm around. What I want is that she is scared of snakes because they hurt without any association to me or the collar. If I would use it for recalls she will link it to me...that's not what I want...I can easily train the recalls with a long leash and positive reinforcement.

[Steve]

My dog took down a brown snake yesterday and I have to admit the hardest part in the whole process is not calling her off or distracting her - to trust her to do her job and look after me.

Thats number 4 brown so far this season here.

So when you use these collars what is the opposite reaction when they see a snake - what behaviour do you expect the dog to do ? Do they just get the hell away from it - stand still etc?

[huski]

In my opinion, if the collar is aversive enough that a dog will leap back and run away in response to it being triggered, regardless of whether it physically hurts the dog or not (and I'm aware that when used properly it doesn't cause injury of any kind), it's not an appropriate training tool for things that can be effectively trained using less aversive methods. I'm also aware of trainers who use them to stop behaviours from dogs that stem from anxiety disorders and personally find that to be cruel. We don't interrupt panic attacks in people by giving them an electric shock and in my mind, it's the same thing.

That might be the way it is used in the snake avoidance training video you saw, but isn't representative of the only way or most common way to use the tool.

Most trainers will use e-collars on the lowest perceivable level to the dog, on a collar that has 100 levels, that could be level 5 or 6 which in many cases is a level even we can't feel ourselves. The dog is taught what the stim means and how to respond to it. If you aren't familiar with e-collar training (and going by the post I have quoted I would assume you aren't :) ) it is unlikely you would even be able to tell when the dog can feel the stim.

If used correctly the collar isn't a behaviour interrupter, or used to correct a dog for displaying anxiety or aggression.

ETA: In my experience, low stim e-collar training is one of the least aversive methods of training. Many people incorrectly assume e-collar = high level aversive.

Edited October 27, 2015 by huski

[huski]

I'm sure the technic is pretty advanced and safe - the point is that I want this 'weapon' against snake bites as sharp as possible; I believe my dog is pretty smart and it won't take long till she figures out that she only gets a shock / stimulation when she is wearing this special collar respectively when I'm around. What I want is that she is scared of snakes because they hurt without any association to me or the collar. If I would use it for recalls she will link it to me...that's not what I want...I can easily train the recalls with a long leash and positive reinforcement.

That would depend on your level of skill as a handler. Just like we can train dogs to respond to the recall cue without needing to see that we have a reward, you can train a dog not to become collar smart.

[Red Fox]

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Edited October 27, 2015 by Red Fox

[Two Best Dogs!]

Yeah in the video the dog gets a shock, is alarmed and jumps back and then is praised for running away from the snake/to the owner. I can see the value in it learning such a response but only in specific situations or training.

Snakes, yes. Day to day obedience? No. Then I can see it causing issues and the dog catching on to the shock and the collar.

In agreement with snook I think - I wouldn't expect this to be something that needs enough refresher courses that the dog will catch on or be desensitised or start to link the collar to anxiety issues from the once off training every couple of years.

But then I also wouldn't expect to use this collar as a training method outside of something as high risk as a snake encounter. Most things you can train with time and reinforcement but snake avoidance is something I would prefer done "hard and fast". If that makes sense

/sighing and continues the clicker training on smell snake = return to owner as better than nothing I guess.

[raineth]

Yeah in the video the dog gets a shock, is alarmed and jumps back and then is praised for running away from the snake/to the owner. I can see the value in it learning such a response but only in specific situations or training.

Snakes, yes. Day to day obedience? No. Then I can see it causing issues and the dog catching on to the shock and the collar.

In agreement with snook I think - I wouldn't expect this to be something that needs enough refresher courses that the dog will catch on or be desensitised or start to link the collar to anxiety issues from the once off training every couple of years.

But then I also wouldn't expect to use this collar as a training method outside of something as high risk as a snake encounter. Most things you can train with time and reinforcement but snake avoidance is something I would prefer done "hard and fast". If that makes sense

/sighing and continues the clicker training on smell snake = return to owner as better than nothing I guess.

What are you using as a snake stimulus? I am curious to know :)

[huski]

There are lots of things that are dangerous behaviours that need to be addressed not unlike snake training - aggression, for one, can be extremely dangerous and time imperative.

But aside from 'high risk/last resort' situations, who wouldn't want to take the quickest possible route to the same (or better) result? I find it interesting that dog training is probably one of the only areas where some people seem to think that doing things a harder, longer way means the end result is better.

I always want to achieve results with my dogs and others in the fastest possible time frame. I would think there was something wrong with my handling if I plugged away at the same method for a long time with no or little result.

[Two Best Dogs!]

Yeah in the video the dog gets a shock, is alarmed and jumps back and then is praised for running away from the snake/to the owner. I can see the value in it learning such a response but only in specific situations or training.

Snakes, yes. Day to day obedience? No. Then I can see it causing issues and the dog catching on to the shock and the collar.

In agreement with snook I think - I wouldn't expect this to be something that needs enough refresher courses that the dog will catch on or be desensitised or start to link the collar to anxiety issues from the once off training every couple of years.

But then I also wouldn't expect to use this collar as a training method outside of something as high risk as a snake encounter. Most things you can train with time and reinforcement but snake avoidance is something I would prefer done "hard and fast". If that makes sense

/sighing and continues the clicker training on smell snake = return to owner as better than nothing I guess.

What are you using as a snake stimulus? I am curious to know :)

The local best friends usually has some snakes. One of the snake containers has little ?air? holes at about dog head height so when there's a snake in it we "casually" walk past and I click her when she shows disinterest or actively moves away/towards me in response.

I do not think this training will hold strong if the snake is moving and therefore interesting/chaseable. But am hoping if she stumbles across a snake at rest she will redirect and come over to me. Or hesitate. Any second gained is good I think

I think there are ppl who do similar with snake skins.

Edited October 27, 2015 by Thistle the dog

[Kavik]

I personally don't think an ecollar would benefit the type of training I do with my dogs, but each to their own :)

[aussielover]

Aren't e collars quite useful for deaf dogs as well?

I've heard they can be used on a low level to train recall or to get the dogs attention?

[huski]

I personally don't think an ecollar would benefit the type of training I do with my dogs, but each to their own :)

I'm definitely not saying you would use an ecollar to train everything. Just a general comment on the idea taking the longer route = better result.

[Kavik]

I also think some things do take time to achieve good understanding, and spending more time on that at the beginning will mean less confusion later on and less failure in the end in a trial environment. I don't think an ecollar would speed up the process.

[huski]

I also think some things do take time to achieve good understanding, and spending more time on that at the beginning will mean less confusion later on and less failure in the end in a trial environment. I don't think an ecollar would speed up the process.

I'm not saying that in every training situation an ecollar could be used to get the same results faster. And by saying I want results fast, I also don't mean everything should happen overnight. Training competition level heel work for example takes a long time and has to be broken into many stages to get it really great. But with any training I am doing I want to see the dog progressing and understanding within a reasonable amount of time, otherwise how would you know it's working?

[Kajirin]

The e-collar training in this instance is fast paced and remote....the dogs are working on multiple tubes with food rewards and a scent [live snake]. Going by the video the tube is clearly marked for the trainer, so as soon as the dog investigates the live snake tube and gets the scent it is instantly corrected remotely. Repetition of this would cement avoidance more so than verbal or other positive based training IMO.

When working on lead with the live snake on the ground and the dogs get too close when scenting, the stim did look as though it made them associate the snake sight/smell with avoidance. Again repetition training would allow them to associate sight/smell with avoidance more quickly.

As this type of training isn't allowed here in SA, I can only go by what I'm seeing in videos and personal anecdotes as opposed to seeing it in real life.

Also, from reading up on modern e-collars I can't see them in a bad light when used responsibly.

[Kavik]

I also think some things do take time to achieve good understanding, and spending more time on that at the beginning will mean less confusion later on and less failure in the end in a trial environment. I don't think an ecollar would speed up the process.

I'm not saying that in every training situation an ecollar could be used to get the same results faster. And by saying I want results fast, I also don't mean everything should happen overnight. Training competition level heel work for example takes a long time and has to be broken into many stages to get it really great. But with any training I am doing I want to see the dog progressing and understanding within a reasonable amount of time, otherwise how would you know it's working?

I agree, if you aren't progressing you need to reassess what you are doing