South Australia Legislation Change Re Electronic Collars

[Kajirin]

Been reading on FB how a local snake catcher wants to garner signatures [by means of letters of support] to try to change the SA animal welfare act to include electronic collar training for reptile avoidance, by approved trainers who have undergone the specific training. But I think at the moment he's pushing for just a trial to see how it fares, as in the West this training has proved quite effective and also in Qld with cane toad avoidance training.

Facebook post

Dog owners or pet owners whom have lost their beloved pets through snakebite & would like to have the option of being able to chose this form of Snake-Avoidance Training in SA; are invited to write a letter of expression of interest ASAP., so that we can include into a petition & proposal to the government to allow or grant an approval for a trial training program into this scientifically proven training, to be made available within SA.

This form of E-Collar training in the right hands & not being abused has proven results, so much so that it is now being incorporated in the northern parts of Australia to include Cane Toads.

Please post letter of expression of interest to, Snake-Away Services, P. O. Box 333, Campbelltown, SA; 5074. **

Remote training collars are not painful - they are uncomfortable if used in the right hands - Dogs don't sit on ants nest as they learn from the discomfort. SAVE YOUR DOG FROM SNAKEBITE - costs a few hundred dollars in comparison to a few thousand dollars with a vet bill, the trauma & potentially a fatality too?

WE NEED YOUR HELP ASAP - Please write soon.

Personally I can see the positives rather than negatives - if it helps train dogs to stay away from all reptiles. I guess the only thing I object to is it being called shock collars - as technology has changed since the old actual shock collar days.

Here's the Messenger press article [also posted in case others can't read it]

http://www.adelaiden...8a5235eec731baf

Push to legalise electric-shock training for dogs to avoid snake bites

October 19, 2015 8:28pm

Celeste Villani The Advertiser

ELECTRIC-SHOCK collars would be used to train pet dogs to avoid deadly snakes under a plan that would overturn a ban on the technique in South Australia.

Using an electric collar, which has been banned for at least 20 years in South Australia, a dog would be shocked by its trainer when it approaches a snake in a tube during a controlled training exercise.

Snake-Away Services managing director Ian Renton will present a petition to Environment Minister Ian Hunter to trial the controversial Snake Avoidance Training Program, which is prohibited in South Australia under the Animal Welfare Act.

The push for the program comes after an increase in the amount of snake sightings across suburban Adelaide, particularly in areas such as Blackwood, Belair, Coromandel Valley, Magill, Athelstone and Auldana.

Mr Renton said the ban on electric collars was outdated and needed to be lifted to protect dogs from snake bites. He said the technique helps canines develop a negative association with the sounds, smell and movement of serpents.

"I get about 150-200 people call me in October, and the same amount call in November about bites," Mr Renton said.

"So you've got to be cruel to be kind – it's really a little pain for long-term gain.

"It costs a few hundred dollars to get your dog trained like this, but it could cost thousands of dollars if it is bitten by a snake, not to mention the trauma owners have when their dog is bitten.

"What the dog would feel is a third of what would be felt if you put a 9V battery on your tongue – it is minimal."

The technique is legal in Western Australia, Northern Territory, Tasmania, Victoria and Queensland.

Animal Welfare League SA spokeswoman Sabine Kloss strongly opposed the introduction of electric-shock collars.

"The AWL believe these devices are ineffective in dog behavioural modification training as in an high-level arousal state any interruptive technique would most likely be ineffective," Ms Kloss said.

Hills Veterinary Centre owner Jon Carruthers also opposed the use of electric collars.

"When it is inappropriately applied it will have a detrimental effect and be cruel – I would be very concerned," Dr Carruthers said.

Klever Kanine Dog Obedience School instructor Elsie Collins, who runs classes in Belair, said the program was "a fantastic idea" and would protect dogs from snake bites.

But Dogs Etc trainer Kate Lloyd said it would cause stress and fear for dogs.

An Environment Department spokesman said the State Government had no plans to legalise the use of electric shock treatment.

For those who have FB accounts the page can be found here https://www.facebook...akeAwayServices

Video...today tonight Snake Avoidance Training

Edited October 25, 2015 by Kajirin

[sandgrubber]

I agree completely, though I live a long way from SA and dislike Facebook. Would be worth adding a few notes about who should write (or phone?) and who they should write to.

btw. as used in aversion training, e-collars are often shock collars. But I agree, in other training the word "shock" is inappropriate, and the aversive delivered by a properly used collar is less strong than a yank on a choke chain or a sonic correction.

[Simply Grand]

The collar delivers an electric shock, why object to the term shock collar? I see a place for aversives in training but I think it's a cop out to avoid the use of the actual terms - "vibration" instead of shock, "correction" instead of punishment. If trainers are confident in their methods why not be open about what those methods are?

[Willem]

I can't follow the arguments of some people: how can the use of a shock collar be cruel if it might safe the life of the dog by staying away from snakes? ... is it less 'cruel' and less painful if the dogs get bitten by a snake?...do we ban vaccinations, blood tests etc. in the future because the needle is cruel and can hurt / stress the dog for a few seconds?...mandatory desexing is ok?...look at all the negative side effects of all the tick and heartworm drugs we accept as a trade-off for avoiding that the dogs suffers from tick paralyses and heartworm infestation! ...how can it be ok to bombard our dogs with chemical / drugs on the one side while demonize the shock collar as a weapon against snake bites?... using a shock collar in snake avoidance training might be a bitter medicine, but IMO it is just another kind of vaccination that prevents the dog from suffering a much bigger pain or even death.

Edited October 25, 2015 by Willem

[Kajirin]

Amended original post to include the facebook post asking people to submit letters and where to. Thanks Sandgrubber for pointing that out.

[Christina]

I can't follow the arguments of some people: how can the use of a shock collar be cruel if it might safe the life of the dog by staying away from snakes? ... is it less 'cruel' and less painful if the dogs get bitten by a snake?...do we ban vaccinations, blood tests etc. in the future because the needle is cruel and can hurt / stress the dog for a few seconds?...mandatory desexing is ok?...look at all the negative side effects of all the tick and heartworm drugs we accept as a trade-off for avoiding that the dogs suffers from tick paralyses and heartworm infestation! ...how can it be ok to bombard our dogs with chemical / drugs on the one side while demonize the shock collar as a weapon against snake bites?... using a shock collar in snake avoidance training might be a bitter medicine, but IMO it is just another kind of vaccination that prevents the dog from suffering a much bigger pain or even death.

Well it is not exactly the same. One can hardly compare vaccination with a shock collar or whatever you want to call it.

Knowing human nature I am against them too.

If a complete stranger is being paid hundreds of dollars to train a dog using this method I guess they need to get a good result. So how much of a shock does it take & how do we know how much of a shock they get ? Up to the persons personal integrity & not able to be monitored & that is variable in any section of the human race.

For the non professional trainers who may get their hands on this device it could be anything goes, we cannot know.

My dogs have seen only one snake but several lizards & baby birds when I am there I yell leave it, move away or sit & stay depending how close they are to it & what direction it is moving in.

Not there I don't know but I can only make my yard that the dogs use safe as possible & snake unfriendly, check before I let them out & hope for the best which I consider better than using this particular training method which still may not work if the dogs are alone.

One could argue that a very tiny & slight tap on the nose may work as well as a shock collar if they are that kind & gentle that they only cause a tiny amount of discomfort. Which I do not believe.

How high can they actually turn them up ?

[Willem]

@ Christina,

...God didn't put any limits on stupidity - so yes, there will be people out there misusing it; however, the same happens with drugs, choke collars, even food!... etc. etc. too: I bet there is more torture (intended and not intended) out there due to misuse of drugs, overdosing, feeding too much and the wrong food etc. than caused by a reasonable employment of shock collars.

My dog for example like to run free in long grass - there is no chance that I would see a snake before she sees it...and I guess she would give it a go to find out what it is. Punch on the nose?...seriously I would prefer the shock collar - the dog will associate the shock with the snake (ups, this hurts) and not with a command of his owner...training the dog by positive reinforcement is also something that is pretty tricky when it comes to snakes.

I know, it is hard to argue using 'common sense' as everyone defines this term different, still: using a shock collar in a snake avoidance training is illegal while desexing becomes mandatory?...oh dear...

Edit: ...and what is about electric fences for horses?...is this cruel too?...if not, what's the difference?

Edited October 25, 2015 by Willem

[sheena]

It probably wouldn't be as effective, but I wonder if they have investigated the use of ultrasonic for training snake avoidance. A couple of years ago, I engaged my "inventor/genius" sister to develop a set up for using ultrasonic. She got all excited about it to start with, then went right off track as to what I wanted If there were somewhere close to me that trained this...I would certainly be taking my dogs along.

[Willem]

It probably wouldn't be as effective, but I wonder if they have investigated the use of ultrasonic for training snake avoidance. A couple of years ago, I engaged my "inventor/genius" sister to develop a set up for using ultrasonic. She got all excited about it to start with, then went right off track as to what I wanted If there were somewhere close to me that trained this...I would certainly be taking my dogs along.

...if you are good in throwing and aiming these gadgets work pretty well, you just have to hit the snake...but then you could just use a stone :laugh: ...I did some reading about this and other 'snake repellents'....I couldn't find any hint that such repellents work (except mechanical barriers). I guess there is also a big risk to do damage to the dogs hearing or at least it could cause stress if the dog is exposed to it all the time?

[Willem]

to add some fuel to the discussion :D : ...I guess we also have to forbid these electrical muscle stimulators that various companies offer on TV?...same principle as a shock collar...and some people love to torture themselves with it :D

wrt an electrical horse fence: this is even crueler as the current runs from the wire through the whole body to the ground while a shock collar causes only a local short cut. I really can't see any reasonable argument why allowing these fences on one side and forbidding shock collars for snake avoidance training on the other.

[sheena]

It probably wouldn't be as effective, but I wonder if they have investigated the use of ultrasonic for training snake avoidance. A couple of years ago, I engaged my "inventor/genius" sister to develop a set up for using ultrasonic. She got all excited about it to start with, then went right off track as to what I wanted If there were somewhere close to me that trained this...I would certainly be taking my dogs along.

...if you are good in throwing and aiming these gadgets work pretty well, you just have to hit the snake...but then you could just use a stone :laugh: ...I did some reading about this and other 'snake repellents'....I couldn't find any hint that such repellents work (except mechanical barriers). I guess there is also a big risk to do damage to the dogs hearing or at least it could cause stress if the dog is exposed to it all the time?

No...I am not talking about ultrasonic snake repellers. I have a hand held ultrasonic thing, which I have used in desperation & as a last resort to train my dogs out of very bad behaviours. I havn't used it for years except for ridding the bats out of my fruit trees or rats out of my walls. It would work as in ...the dog goes near the snake/smell/movement etc just the same as they are training it in the video with the shock collar...but instead of the dog getting a shock, it would get a burst of harmless ultrasonic sound. The ultrasonic that the snake repellers deliver is not on the dogs wavelength & therefor they (the dogs) are uneffected by it. The snake repellers work more on a "vibration" through the ground.

[Willem]

No...I am not talking about ultrasonic snake repellers. I have a hand held ultrasonic thing, which I have used in desperation & as a last resort to train my dogs out of very bad behaviours. I havn't used it for years except for ridding the bats out of my fruit trees or rats out of my walls. It would work as in ...the dog goes near the snake/smell/movement etc just the same as they are training it in the video with the shock collar...but instead of the dog getting a shock, it would get a burst of harmless ultrasonic sound. The ultrasonic that the snake repellers deliver is not on the dogs wavelength & therefor they (the dogs) are uneffected by it. The snake repellers work more on a "vibration" through the ground.

...if it would work (I don't know): we humans can't hear the sound, while we can feel the electric shock - automatically we tend to believe that 'shocking' the dog with ultrasound is less tortures for the dog than using an electric shock (or electric stimulation)? ...the guys in the video clip demonstrate that the electric intensity is actually quite moderate - it doesn't burn holes in the fur nor does it other harm...it just gives the dog an inconvenient stimulation for a fraction of a second that the dog will associate with the snake...

Edited October 26, 2015 by Willem

[Kajirin]

I did do some reading up on electronic collars - with modern collars, the stim used is generally less than a static charge you'd get rubbing your feet on carpet and is way less than a electric fence. The stim goes from point to point and does not affect the circulatory system of a dog. Shock collars of old got their name from issuing a very large shock to the dog which was painful.

[Weasels]

I'm yet to find a trainer in SA I would trust to use a clicker with my dogs let alone a collar remote.

[Two Best Dogs!]

Looks much more effective than my clicker training with snake avoidance.

Not something I would turn down if a session was offered to me. They even tested the collar on a person in the video and would imagine any customers could ask to have it uses on them too.

With all the snakes showing up on paths in my local dog walking area + summer hiking... Way preferable to a bitten dog.

[Kajirin]

Just had a brown snake here out the front near my garden tables this afternoon, was standing right near it and didn't see it until it slithered away The dogs were safe though around the back in the concrete summer run [which gets checked before they're allowed out].

[sheena]

I wonder if the training would be effective enough to last the dog for life, or would it have to be repeated, probably annually...just to remind the dog. Just thinking, if the dog receives the training & then comes into close proximity to a few snakes along the way & finds, surprise, surprise....I didn't get zapped...if the training would wear off & the dogs natural curiosity & prey drive would start to creep back in.

[DeltaCharlie]

If someone offered me the chance to train all of my dogs with this I would jump at the opportunity. My dogs get a worse shock from me patting them while wearing parachute trackpants (I am having major static electricity issues in this humidity!). I would have no objection to it whatsoever.

[Willem]

I wonder if the training would be effective enough to last the dog for life, or would it have to be repeated, probably annually...just to remind the dog. Just thinking, if the dog receives the training & then comes into close proximity to a few snakes along the way & finds, surprise, surprise....I didn't get zapped...if the training would wear off & the dogs natural curiosity & prey drive would start to creep back in.

...in this video

they mention a refreshing course after a 'couple of years'...whatever this means....I guess every 2 years would be good?...you might not even have to use the collar, just a checkup on how the dog responses when seeing or sniffing the snake.

[Willem]

I'm not a huge fan of shock collars as a regular training tool or for use with anxiety related issues, as I think there are much better ways to do things. However, I think you have to weigh up the reason you're using it with the possible outcome of not using it. In this case, I'd much rather subject my dog to some short term training with it to teach him to keep his distance from snakes, than end up with a critically ill or dead dog. Given the prevalence of deadly snakes in Australia and in particular, brown snakes that seem to be absolutely everywhere, I think it would be worth the approval being granted specifically for snake avoidance training. I can't think of any positive training methods that would be as effective and likely to be adhered to in the absence of a dog's owner.

I wouldn't use it for anything else - I compare it with an antibiotic: it becomes a blunt weapon if used freely. I guess if such a collar is used for other training, with time the dog would figure out that the collar is something 'special', and might behave different when not wearing the collar. The dog should associate the shock with the snake, not with the collar. So I believe it is only justified using it when there is no other practical way of training possible as it is the case with snakes.

Edited October 27, 2015 by Willem