Clipping Double Coated Breeds

[sandgrubber]

...I guess you also believe then that your electricity bill for your aircon is lower if the house has poor insulation? :D ...because without insulation it is much cooler in summer?...take the fridge as an example: the dogs tongue is the radiator, the lounges the compressor, the dog's body the fridge - to keep everything cooler inside, the fridge needs a good insulation otherwise the compressor will be worn out very soon...or take your car as an example: all the cars have pretty poor insulation, that's why they get incredible hot inside in summer - same happens with a dog if you take their insulation away.

Bad analogy. Heat energy flows from warmer to cooler areas. You want insulation to keep your house around 20-25C when ambient is 30C +, to prevent heat from flowing in. Your dog is NOT a refrigerator. A dog's temperature is well above ambient except on days where it's above 39 C. Removing insulation allows body heat to get out!

There are devils in the details. A dual coat is like wearing a weatherproof parka over a thick jumper. It is not clear whether raking the undercoat . . . which amounts to trading a thick jumper to a thin one . . . is more effective than shaving off the outer coat.

Edited October 23, 2015 by sandgrubber

[seregil]

Thanks

The physics is absolutely clear. Unless the air temperature is higher than your dog's body temperature, clipping will cool the dog. Where outside is cooler than inside, insulation keeps heat in. The double coat is like a good sweater or a blanket. Clipping removes the insulation and allows body heat to escape.

Precisely what I was trying to say :) . This is also why keeping these coats adequately groomed helps a lot. Heat can still 'get through', compared to a coat with a thick buildup of dead undercoat, knots, matting etc.

And Jules I agree, sterilising makes a BIG difference! Have seen it many times, male or female, but particularly noticeable in bitches that are speyed. I only show one of my two male rough collies - the older 4 year old is a 'failed showdog' but I have left him entire, coat is way easier to maintain.

Even so, "spey-coats" can still be managed, they are just twice as much work!

[sandgrubber]

Google 'post clipping alopecia'. Is a pretty common problem with dogs that are clipped. May not happen the first few times they are clipped, but common enough in double coated breeds in particular that it has a name.

Here is a good article on hair length and temperature tolerance that provides a scientific explanation of that aspect:

Can't read the posters and the URL gives me a 404.

I pulled one article on post clipping alopecia. It said the dog's hair dissapates heat in summer. That is FALSE! Hair creates dead air space, thickens the boundary layer, and interferes with convective energy transfer (ie it insulates).

[Willem]

Could anyone provide any scientific evidence why this is bad?

I understand that if they are clipped to short, they are prone to sunburn etc, but I am having trouble understanding the theory behind a double coat acting as "insulation" against the heat.

For example I don't feel cooler if I wear a thermal top under a light shirt on a hot day. Obviously, I feel warmer and would probably take off a layer.

Also, many double coated dogs aren't historically bred for hot humid aussie conditions.

I have had my lab clipped a few times (mainly when she's in a tick area), and feel that she is subjectively cooler without all the hair. But I don't know if I'll do it again this year as we won't really be in tick areas much this summer.

Thanks

The physics is absolutely clear. Unless the air temperature is higher than your dog's body temperature, clipping will cool the dog. Where outside is cooler than inside, insulation keeps heat in. The double coat is like a good jumper or a blanket. Clipping removes the insulation and allows body heat to escape.

If you want to win shows . . . clipping may be bad. A think coat provides some protection against scratches and mozzies, and may allow a wet dog to enjoy evaporative cooling for longer (like a wet sweater). But if it's not a century day, dogs are warmer than air temperature. Clipping and undercoat stripping make it easier to shed body heat.

...that's only a part of the physics - you forgot the heat / sun radiation; take the car as a simple example: you have an outside temperature of 25 deg C - no AC running. According to your theory the temperature inside the car should never exceed 25 deg C. We all know that this is not true, the car will absorb the solar energy and it won't take long and the temperature inside the car is much higher than outside. Without the coat the dogs body will absorb much more heat energy, however, beside a small fraction he can get rid off via convection and radiation, the biggest part has to be discharged by his 'radiator' (=tongue). So the poorer the insulation, the more work his specific cooling system has to do. Another example: according to your theory the bitumen should never have a higher temperature than the air - again, we all know that this isn't correct. The 'physics' you cite works for us humans - but only because we can get rid of the heat via our skin respectively by sweating.

Ask your vet if you don't believe this.

[Willem]

...I guess you also believe then that your electricity bill for your aircon is lower if the house has poor insulation? :D ...because without insulation it is much cooler in summer?...take the fridge as an example: the dogs tongue is the radiator, the lounges the compressor, the dog's body the fridge - to keep everything cooler inside, the fridge needs a good insulation otherwise the compressor will be worn out very soon...or take your car as an example: all the cars have pretty poor insulation, that's why they get incredible hot inside in summer - same happens with a dog if you take their insulation away.

Bad analogy. Heat energy flows from warmer to cooler areas. You want insulation to keep your house around 20-25C when ambient is 30C +, to prevent heat from flowing in. Your dog is NOT a refrigerator. A dog's temperature is well above ambient except on days where it's above 39 C. Removing insulation allows body heat to get out!

There are devils in the details. A dual coat is like wearing a weatherproof parka over a thick jumper. It is not clear whether raking the undercoat . . . which amounts to trading a thick jumper to a thin one . . . is more effective than shaving off the outer coat.

it is actually a very good analogy. You are right that the heat energy flows from warmer to cooler areas - but you miss the impact of transferring energy via radiation and a body that is absorbing the energy...you have to look at the whole energy balance. The dog's body can absorb a lot of heat / solar energy, but to get rid of the same amount (so you have a balance of energy going in and out) the temperature needs to be significant higher than the outside temperature. If this is the case, then your theory works. Unfortunately, in this case the dog would be already dead as his body temperature has to be much higher than the normal body temperature of 38-39 deg.

[Rascalmyshadow]

I have clipped many doubled coated dogs over the 20 years I've been grooming, some grow back fine some don't, I have found that older dogs and breeds such as Keeshonds, Samoyeds, Poms and Pekes to be the worst for growing back a crappy coat.

While I personally wouldn't do it to my own double coated dog I have noticed the dogs are a lot happier and cooler once clipped back (not shaved to the skin) and it is better than a dog with matts and a ton of undercoat.

[Willem]

...the 'lot happier and cooler' impression might come from their increased heartbeat / pulse: to dispatch the increased amount of absorbed energy their blood has to be pumped faster, heartbeat will increase etc....a little bit like having a good cup of coffee - makes me feel happier all the time :D .

It might also depend on where you recognize this impression: in the house? ...or outside?...if the dog is kept in the house most of the time, there is obviously much less sun radiation at all, perhaps there is even a aircon running, hence negative side effects might be minimized or even not recognizable. And if it is a stinky hot day outside, you might be reluctant to spend much time outside with your dog, hence the chances that you see the negative side effects are smaller.

Fact is - and that is verified via the physics - that clipping won't help a dog wrt heat dispatching, conversely it will increase the heat intake due to radiation when exposed to sunlight / outdoors. Yes, clipping would increase his capability of dispatching heat energy by convection (evaporation is not possible for the dog's skin!), however, as the driver here is the temperature difference between air temperature and skin temperature, the energy that can be dispatched is limited and would only become substantial if the skin temperature would be significant higher than the dogs normal temperature (causing the dog's death).

[cowanbree]

I am seriously considering getting a couple of my desexed shelties trimmed. They have such massive coats that they just look like big woolly blobs. I can manage the coats but they are a lot of work and I do wonder how comfortable they are.

Groomers is that unrealistic to expect? I want an all over trim and coat thinning rather than shaved? I would really just want the bulk of the coat removed and everything neatened. Would that wreak the coat?

[Guest donatella]

Mine are inner city aircon dwelling apartment dogs aside from walks usually after hours given my working commitments. My clipped girl is definitely happier and more vibrant sans coat and she will never be a show dog so if I had to keep her short for the rest of her life she'd cope just fine. We live in qld and it's hot here a lot.

To the reference that all clipped dogs are because their owners are lazy and don't groom this is untrue. Both of mine are booked into a very highly regarded groomer 4-6 weekly and appointments booked for 6 months in advance. I chose to have one clipped (not shaved to skin) because she loves it and it suits her. Every time her coat has grown back thicker then the last defying the odds although I realise this could change with every given clip. Both of mine have been brushed and groomed since the age of 3 months and will sit on the table whilst I comb out their hair. I also scissor their bums in between grooms to keep this area clean. ????

[Dame Aussie]

Not to mention she looks adorable Don :D

[Jumabaar]

Left of centre- I have had a malamute clipped at work to find a tick.

That was ok.

it now has pressure sores!

Big dog

Laying down more due to recovering from the tick

Loss of fluffy covering

So while I do attempt to avoid it owning a spitz breed I do see individuals who do better with a clip.

And then there is clipping for medical reasons, which we are currently waiting out with one of my girls post laparoscopic Spey.

I am spending a little more time grooming to assist the undercoat to seperate since we are at the fuzzy undercoat stage without a significant amount of guard hair. I am expecting a few coat cycles for it to return completely to normal.

I haven't had any other tick cases have issues regardless of their coat type and most return to reasonably normal coat given time.

[Pjrt]

Over my 30 yrs grooming my stand has completely back flipped on the clipping double coat debate.

I have come to believe that for whatever reason the owner wants the dog clipped, it is their right to have it done. I would much prefer to see a clipped off coat than a matted packed immovable unbreathing body cast. In a perfect world, no, I wouldn't be clipping double coats, but in our not perfect world, if clipping the dog is the best way the owner feels to manage their pet, power to them. I find the clipped ones are usually house pets and very much loved, just have owners that are either too lazy to groom and at least do something about the dogs coat, or prefer the clipped look and convenience that comes with it. I do believe that the clipped off ones are cooler, more comfortable. I don't think the insulating argument stacks up that well in our climate and in the modern day of mostly house pets in temperature controlled environments. My own Chow was impeccably groomed, but when he got older I decided one summer day when he was struggling, to clip him down and OMG he was like a brand new puppy and was kept short for the rest of his life!

If we want to get all pedantic we shouldn't be clipping Cavaliers, Maltese, ShihTzu, etc etc....they don't actually have breed clips either. And then there are all the wire coats we clip day in day out.

[Guest donatella]

Not to mention she looks adorable Don :D

Aww thanks I think she does :)

[Dame Aussie]

I think if the dog is noticeably happier/more comfortable then go for it. My only worry is the way it grows back but it seems that's quite variable. some seem to grow back fine, others a bit wild. I've heard a lot of Aussie owners say that their dogs coats changed when they were desexed too.

[Pjrt]

The Spey neuter coats on many double coat breeds are completely insane and can be quite unmanageable for even the most dedicated owners.

One of the easiest ways to reduce grooming issues on long thick double coats is to keep them entire. Not only do entire coats do proper coat drops, unlike Spey coats that often won't budge, but even if quite neglected, entire coats are a much easier fix because they will blow out five times easier and more thoroughly than spey neuter coats with much less grooming stress on the dog.

In my perfect world double coats (and combination coats) would be kept entire!

[denali]

Over my 30 yrs grooming my stand has completely back flipped on the clipping double coat debate.

I have come to believe that for whatever reason the owner wants the dog clipped, it is their right to have it done. I would much prefer to see a clipped off coat than a matted packed immovable unbreathing body cast. In a perfect world, no, I wouldn't be clipping double coats, but in our not perfect world, if clipping the dog is the best way the owner feels to manage their pet, power to them. I find the clipped ones are usually house pets and very much loved, just have owners that are either too lazy to groom and at least do something about the dogs coat, or prefer the clipped look and convenience that comes with it. I do believe that the clipped off ones are cooler, more comfortable. I don't think the insulating argument stacks up that well in our climate and in the modern day of mostly house pets in temperature controlled environments. My own Chow was impeccably groomed, but when he got older I decided one summer day when he was struggling, to clip him down and OMG he was like a brand new puppy and was kept short for the rest of his life!

If we want to get all pedantic we shouldn't be clipping Cavaliers, Maltese, ShihTzu, etc etc....they don't actually have breed clips either. And then there are all the wire coats we clip day in day out.

Had a crazy lady tell me my dogs wouldn't feel less hot after a clip.And that their coats wont grow back.She was a cav breeder and so set in the standard that apparently i was being cruel

Their hair continues to grow back Plus they are one of the few spaniel breeds who dont have a show clip, but their coats are remarkably similar to some.

[Pjrt]

Over my 30 yrs grooming my stand has completely back flipped on the clipping double coat debate.

I have come to believe that for whatever reason the owner wants the dog clipped, it is their right to have it done. I would much prefer to see a clipped off coat than a matted packed immovable unbreathing body cast. In a perfect world, no, I wouldn't be clipping double coats, but in our not perfect world, if clipping the dog is the best way the owner feels to manage their pet, power to them. I find the clipped ones are usually house pets and very much loved, just have owners that are either too lazy to groom and at least do something about the dogs coat, or prefer the clipped look and convenience that comes with it. I do believe that the clipped off ones are cooler, more comfortable. I don't think the insulating argument stacks up that well in our climate and in the modern day of mostly house pets in temperature controlled environments. My own Chow was impeccably groomed, but when he got older I decided one summer day when he was struggling, to clip him down and OMG he was like a brand new puppy and was kept short for the rest of his life!

If we want to get all pedantic we shouldn't be clipping Cavaliers, Maltese, ShihTzu, etc etc....they don't actually have breed clips either. And then there are all the wire coats we clip day in day out.

Had a crazy lady tell me my dogs wouldn't feel less hot after a clip.And that their coats wont grow back.She was a cav breeder and so set in the standard that apparently i was being cruel

Their hair continues to grow back Plus they are one of the few spaniel breeds who dont have a show clip, but their coats are remarkably similar to some.

Yeah for a breed that really doesn't have a hair trimmed off for "breed profile" grooming, except maybe trim level under the pads, they are one of the breeds groomers mow day after day!

[sandgrubber]

Could anyone provide any scientific evidence why this is bad?

I understand that if they are clipped to short, they are prone to sunburn etc, but I am having trouble understanding the theory behind a double coat acting as "insulation" against the heat.

For example I don't feel cooler if I wear a thermal top under a light shirt on a hot day. Obviously, I feel warmer and would probably take off a layer.

Also, many double coated dogs aren't historically bred for hot humid aussie conditions.

I have had my lab clipped a few times (mainly when she's in a tick area), and feel that she is subjectively cooler without all the hair. But I don't know if I'll do it again this year as we won't really be in tick areas much this summer.

Thanks

The physics is absolutely clear. Unless the air temperature is higher than your dog's body temperature, clipping will cool the dog. Where outside is cooler than inside, insulation keeps heat in. The double coat is like a good jumper or a blanket. Clipping removes the insulation and allows body heat to escape.

If you want to win shows . . . clipping may be bad. A think coat provides some protection against scratches and mozzies, and may allow a wet dog to enjoy evaporative cooling for longer (like a wet sweater). But if it's not a century day, dogs are warmer than air temperature. Clipping and undercoat stripping make it easier to shed body heat.

...that's only a part of the physics - you forgot the heat / sun radiation; take the car as a simple example: you have an outside temperature of 25 deg C - no AC running. According to your theory the temperature inside the car should never exceed 25 deg C. We all know that this is not true, the car will absorb the solar energy and it won't take long and the temperature inside the car is much higher than outside. Without the coat the dogs body will absorb much more heat energy, however, beside a small fraction he can get rid off via convection and radiation, the biggest part has to be discharged by his 'radiator' (=tongue). So the poorer the insulation, the more work his specific cooling system has to do. Another example: according to your theory the bitumen should never have a higher temperature than the air - again, we all know that this isn't correct. The 'physics' you cite works for us humans - but only because we can get rid of the heat via our skin respectively by sweating.

Ask your vet if you don't believe this.

I taught energy balance physics at a college level and at one point was pretty familiar with the animal literature on the subject. 'My theory' is based on Newtonian physics. They hold for cars, people, potatoes, rocks . . . you name it. Here's a short lecture:

1. There are three modes of energy exchange: radiant, conductive, and convective. Insulation cuts off convective and slows conductive exchange; the convective term is generally more important than the radiative when air circulates freely around the body, when the body is in motion, or when the wind blows.

2. Insulation blocks both conduction and convection. It might indirectly affects radiative transfer if the insulating substance absorbs radiation (ie, albedo).

2. The dog in a hot environment is a body radiating at around 39 C in an environment that is typically cooler than the dog.

3. The dog's coat color, and perhaps to a small extent texture, will affect the absorption of energy, particularly solar radiation.

4. The coat depth and thickness and physical structure block the conduction and convection of heat from the dog's body. The thicker the coat, the more heat exchange is blocked.

5. A dog that wants to stay cool will often dig a hole in a cool, shady, moist location to enjoy conductive heat exchange from the ground and escape heat gain from radiation.

You are correct, sweating and panting also affect a dog or human's energy budget. Evaporative cooling.

The car heats up because the windows allow solar energy to come in. Once absorbed and turned to heat, this energy can no longer go through the glass, as glass is not transparent to energy radiating off bodies whose temperatures are below, say, the below the boiling point of water. Road tar gets hot because it is very effective in absorbing energy (low albedo). If you park you car in a garage on a hot day, it will be the same temperature as the garage. Put shades on the windows and it won't heat up so much.

Dogs coats are NOT transparent, so the car example is irrelevant.

[sandgrubber]

...I guess you also believe then that your electricity bill for your aircon is lower if the house has poor insulation? :D ...because without insulation it is much cooler in summer?...take the fridge as an example: the dogs tongue is the radiator, the lounges the compressor, the dog's body the fridge - to keep everything cooler inside, the fridge needs a good insulation otherwise the compressor will be worn out very soon...or take your car as an example: all the cars have pretty poor insulation, that's why they get incredible hot inside in summer - same happens with a dog if you take their insulation away.

Bad analogy. Heat energy flows from warmer to cooler areas. You want insulation to keep your house around 20-25C when ambient is 30C +, to prevent heat from flowing in. Your dog is NOT a refrigerator. A dog's temperature is well above ambient except on days where it's above 39 C. Removing insulation allows body heat to get out!

There are devils in the details. A dual coat is like wearing a weatherproof parka over a thick jumper. It is not clear whether raking the undercoat . . . which amounts to trading a thick jumper to a thin one . . . is more effective than shaving off the outer coat.

it is actually a very good analogy. You are right that the heat energy flows from warmer to cooler areas - but you miss the impact of transferring energy via radiation and a body that is absorbing the energy...you have to look at the whole energy balance. The dog's body can absorb a lot of heat / solar energy, but to get rid of the same amount (so you have a balance of energy going in and out) the temperature needs to be significant higher than the outside temperature. If this is the case, then your theory works. Unfortunately, in this case the dog would be already dead as his body temperature has to be much higher than the normal body temperature of 38-39 deg.

??? Energy lost by radiation is proportional to temperature to the 4th power. Very hot objects (the sun, fires, red hot metal, etc.) loose a lot of energy via radiation. Dogs, at 39 C do not loos much energy this way.

You can find all the equations for this stuff on Wikipedia . . . look up "Thermal Radiation".

[Willem]

... 'My theory' is based on Newtonian physics....

outch! ... my theory is based on thermodynamics ... I deal with this on a daily basis....