lisaspence Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Hello all! I am not new to these forums - I have been reading quite a few posts over the months :) But now have decided to post a question regarding my own dog! My dog (2 and half years old), has been through puppy training with the local community training (eastern suburbs obedience dog club) when she was young and is quite obedient to my demands! However, there were a few situations and poor advice making her symptoms escalate from 'just a shy dog that needs discipline and obedience' to a highly anxious, reactive and aggressive dog. When she turned 2, we decided to see a behaviourist who really helped us understand her. We now know how to deal with stressful situations and we have been in the process of 'conditioning' her. She is on medication for her anxiety - as she was beginning to be so anxious even around the home causing her to hurt her muscles/ligaments due to running so much and so sporadically just to 'check' on things. The medication has definitely helped with her anxiety at home - now she is much more calm, just lying around or playing with her ball :). However, we cannot take her to the park anymore as she may suddenly run off and chase a cyclist and bark at them until we finally grab her (although she has never bitten anyone or any dog). We walk her every morning and maybe some afternoons, only on the lead around the streets. I play with her daily - ball throwing/catching, tug-of-war, or just running around the back yard. On walks, we try to avoid people and other dogs - by crossing the road, or walking away from them - as she becomes extremely reactive and will lunge and bark until there is a good enough space for her to feel comfortable again. What i'm trying to get out is that, we understand our dog. We have tried numerous methods, but so far, we only have a few results. We understand persistence and understanding, but we eventually want to be able to walk her with no issues. I would REALLY like to socialise her more, as she does miss her doggy friends - she used to have a group of close dog friends who she loves and plays with for hours. I want to be able to walk her on her lead without feeling uncomfortable - where she feels calm enough to walk by dogs and people without feeling anxious or have the need to be aggressive. I understand she may always have her fears, but if she has the ability to have dog friends and get along with them, then I can only imagine she can get over her fears on the leash. She is such a affectionate dog to anyone who is close with her, but it is so sad to see her like this in other situations! What a joy she would bring to people if she could be comfortable with everyone! haha. But anyway... So soes anyone have any suggestions as to where I could take her for training? I was thinking group sessions, as it would help to become more familiar with being on the leash whilst near other 'strangers' and dogs. But I really don't know. I could muzzle her - for my own sanity. So that wouldn't be a problem. I would only hope other dog owners would understand my situation and not think I am the worst dog owner in the world... I have had a look at eastern companion training, and it looks quite good - but am up for any suggestions! I am willing to hop along to any the classes and check them all out before I commit to anything. But it would be GREAT if someone was in the same situation as me, and could help guide me! I must not be the only owner with an aggressive/anxious dog! Many thanks, Lisa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpha bet Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 We run group classes... further away from you but we also are starting a monthly Workshop on a Sunday for people who live further away. This might be a program that can help you and your dog build confidence. Welcome to ring if you have queries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 You didn't mention what breed your dog is? .... On walks, we try to avoid people and other dogs - by crossing the road, or walking away from them - as she becomes extremely reactive and will lunge and bark until there is a good enough space for her to feel comfortable again. ...by not trying to change her behavior you reinforced it obviously over time ...you definitely need other dogs and experienced owners / trainers to help you out here. As you don't know how she would react if she would be face to face with another dog, you can't try it out with a dog owner you just met during the walk. For me it looks like she behaves like this because she never learned a different behavior - it might not be too difficult to change this...talk to an experienced trainer and give it a go... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 (edited) I'd contact Cosmolo on this forum - she runs Underdog Training. She helped me a lot with my dog who was reactive to other dogs, to the point where Lucy was great friends with her pack of calm, well trained, solid nerved dogs. ETA: You might need a 1:1 session first, learn skills on how to deal with things and then go to group classes. Edited October 20, 2015 by megan_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lisaspence Posted October 20, 2015 Author Share Posted October 20, 2015 You didn't mention what breed your dog is? .... On walks, we try to avoid people and other dogs - by crossing the road, or walking away from them - as she becomes extremely reactive and will lunge and bark until there is a good enough space for her to feel comfortable again. ...by not trying to change her behavior you reinforced it obviously over time ...you definitely need other dogs and experienced owners / trainers to help you out here. As you don't know how she would react if she would be face to face with another dog, you can't try it out with a dog owner you just met during the walk. For me it looks like she behaves like this because she never learned a different behavior - it might not be too difficult to change this...talk to an experienced trainer and give it a go... Thanks Willem, sorry I forgot - she is a cocker spaniel x poodle x labrador or golden retriever (we think) - she was an 'accidental' pup; her mum was a spaniel x poodle and her father was unknown. I agreed to adopt her because of the mothers temperaments. We have used methods in the past to try and change her behaviour - with private trainers using chocker collars/leads and it worked well for her pulling on the lead - she doesn't do that now. But we think it caused more fear/pain when used to correct behaviours surrounding her reactivity. Another trainer and behaviourist taught me to use a method where i positively reinforce (e.g. saying good girl) when coming close to a 'situation' and slowly get closer and closer until she doesn't react. But it is difficult when in an unpredictable world where suddenly there might be someone around the corner, or maybe we'll see no one on the walk. It is difficult to get anywhere with this method if every situation (walking session) is different. So yes i agree, it can't be tested on other dog owners on the walk! However, no i don't agree that she behaves this way because she never learnt another behaviour. As i said, she has anxiety and fear, but is otherwise an obedient dog. Her issue is that she doesn't feel comfortable in the situation - a closed off environment like being on a leash. In an open environment (like the park), she can choose who she meets and who she plays with, so usually if she doesn't feel comfortable around a certain dog - she may just move on and walk around them. She doesn't bark and lunge at them like she would in a closed environment. So no, I don't think its just because she hasn't learnt the appropriate behaviour. Sorry, I just have had this advice given to me numerous times and it does not work for my dog. But i appreciate your help! I would definitely look to teaching her other methods (when she doesn't want to meet a certain dog or person) when she feels more comfortable and less fearful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Have you tried the Look At That Game (LAT)...Have a look hereSure it needs a controlled environment & you gradually work up to more & more stimulants, but a lot of people, myself included, have found it a wonderful tool. Do you teach her tricks using a clicker & treats...what sort of mental stimulation/training do you give her ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 ... Her issue is that she doesn't feel comfortable in the situation ... hm... the issue might be that she doesn't trust you?...at home, in the garden it is easy to be obedient, you have to train her outside her comfort zone, you can play with the distance to other dogs, reduce the distance slowly... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 (edited) hm... the issue might be that she doesn't trust you?...... ...it's not meant to offend you ... just some food for thoughts... :) Edited October 20, 2015 by Willem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 (edited) hm... the issue might be that she doesn't trust you?...... ...it's not meant to offend you ... just some food for thoughts... :) I don't think it's a matter of trust. I think it's a matter of thresholds - fear is often the cause but it's not well recognised. I agree that introducing triggers slowly in different environments and at a greater distance will help. The "Look At That" approach i.e counterconditioning, is one I use and teach a lot. It's surprisingly effective. Edited October 20, 2015 by The Spotted Devil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lisaspence Posted October 20, 2015 Author Share Posted October 20, 2015 Have you tried the Look At That Game (LAT)...Have a look hereSure it needs a controlled environment & you gradually work up to more & more stimulants, but a lot of people, myself included, have found it a wonderful tool. Do you teach her tricks using a clicker & treats...what sort of mental stimulation/training do you give her ?? Yes, I have tried that! I do like it, and so does she, but am yet to see it work in high stressed situations! She gets too focused on the other thing, and tunes me out - and the clicker. I totally think it would work to gradually work up to more stimulants, but how would you do that? Every day is different, as different people walk around at different times, and its never the same. You know? And for mental stimulation - walking on a leash is actually a lot of mental stimulation. Play-wise and outside walking, i've taught her to 'catch' from far away, we play 'hide and seek' in my house - my fav :) And usually my brother might play with her and gets her to sit, lie down and roll over. I also do a calming game, where I teach her to focus on only me (and treats) and looking into my eyes - and as she begins to calm more (ears relaxed, leg relaxed or even lying down), i reward her. Its great for when she gets too excited about something, as i just need to look at her and get her to sit, and she calms down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lisaspence Posted October 20, 2015 Author Share Posted October 20, 2015 ... Her issue is that she doesn't feel comfortable in the situation ... hm... the issue might be that she doesn't trust you?...at home, in the garden it is easy to be obedient, you have to train her outside her comfort zone, you can play with the distance to other dogs, reduce the distance slowly... Yes she doesn't trust me in those high stressed environments - she tunes me out and anything else out for that matter. My problem is that i can't find a location where I can put her outside her comfort zone and reduce the distance slowly - because as i have said, its not easy to do so in the real world. Theres lots of different distractions/stressers everyday, so its hard to keep a specific distance. Does that make sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lisaspence Posted October 20, 2015 Author Share Posted October 20, 2015 hm... the issue might be that she doesn't trust you?...... ...it's not meant to offend you ... just some food for thoughts... :) I don't think it's a matter of trust. I think it's a matter of thresholds - fear is often the cause but it's not well recognised. I agree that introducing triggers slowly in different environments and at a greater distance will help. The "Look At That" approach i.e counterconditioning, is one I use and teach a lot. It's surprisingly effective. I totally agree. Do you have any recommendations as to how to introduce triggers slowly? Like taking her for walks - i obviously can't predict every runner, or every owner with a dog that might be coming around a corner. I could try night walking - as less people about. But i don't know where from there... it kinda seems my area is full of active people and dogs all day long! haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two Best Dogs! Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 (edited) I have been using Positive K9 in Kew ($17 a lesson I think, or 5 for $80) and have been incredibly pleased (and relieved and grateful and so very supported) for all the help I've been getting with a scared dog. They can do a one-on-one assessment or at classes. If you do come to classes, feel free to say hi from whatever distance you prefer! You can't miss us, we're the big dog in the yellow scared jacket. There are 2 other yellow jacket scared dogs, they are both very small and in advanced classes. I was doing lots of exercises prior to the class after a one on one session with Ernie the dog bloke who came out to assess her after she was attacked and she was getting less twitchy but I felt we'd progress more in a controlled class environment with other people and dogs around. But everything controlled, unlike the street. I contacted them after I read about Bella (a DA GSD) then went and watched one of their classes and on the recommendation of Ernie. I sent an email to chris first to explain what was up, and he called me and we chatted. He also calls me if I seem a bit down in facebook social group (private for customers) to give advice and encourage. Our first class Thistle was a frozen crouching wreck behind me, jumping and barking at anyone (people and dog) who moved. She's scared of people and scared of dogs, we border very closely to dog aggression I think but haven't crossed that path and are moving away from it. I had her on two leads - 1 on the hand and one attached to my belt so she couldn't bolt :/ We are coming up on our 21st lesson and yesterday I walked her past a bouncy intact bull arab boy and today she recalled on a long line when we were surprised by two off lead dogs in the mountains (after having it to ourselves the whole day). The sunday we just had she politely sniffed a bouncy kelpie, twice! She was still tense and worried, but it is a milestone improvement. So long and short of it, positive k9 training is really helping my scared reactive be less scared and reactive! For triggers and desensitisation with dogs/people - I go to Petbarn and Bestfriends during the quiet hours! I play the Look at That game mentioned up thread and reward her for any positive behaviour and redirect her from any negative behaviour (that includes pulling me towards dogs, even to say hello. It's calmly and politely or not at all). I also go watch kids play footie. Nothing says impulse control more than teaching a dog to stay calm with lots of screaming children chasing a ball in the distance :p Oh! Also, a flirt pole with rules is awesome, to again teach impulse control. For when she is TOO focussed and staring at something, I draw her away and redirect. We move further away and I try to discourage prolonged eye contact with other dogs as they get into stare competitions. So distract BEFORE pup gets focussed. Not after. That took me awhile to work out Edited October 20, 2015 by Thistle the dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Have you tried the Look At That Game (LAT)...Have a look hereSure it needs a controlled environment & you gradually work up to more & more stimulants, but a lot of people, myself included, have found it a wonderful tool. Do you teach her tricks using a clicker & treats...what sort of mental stimulation/training do you give her ?? Yes, I have tried that! I do like it, and so does she, but am yet to see it work in high stressed situations! She gets too focused on the other thing, and tunes me out - and the clicker. I totally think it would work to gradually work up to more stimulants, but how would you do that? Every day is different, as different people walk around at different times, and its never the same. it takes some times, but it is a simple and very efficient trainings methodology without stress! ...just don't expect that when it works in her comfort zone that it automatically works in a high stress situation - you have to increase the stress level slowly! Once she masters a slightly higher stress level, you increase it again, and so on....it is all about getting her attention back. I do it in front of the house, my dog looks at passing cars, bicycles, birds ...she is still pretty relaxed when doing this (she goes only nuts when she sees other dogs as she wants to play...) ...and once I see her focusing on something else I just try to get her focus back...a game without stress. When I walk her and we approaching other dogs, I play with the trigger distance, make her drop and stay till the other dog arrives or passes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 ...... she tunes me out and anything else out for that matter. My problem is that i can't find a location where I can put her outside her comfort zone and reduce the distance slowly - because as i have said, its not easy to do so in the real world. Theres lots of different distractions/stressers everyday, so its hard to keep a specific distance. Does that make sense? ...if you can't do it in front of your house / flat because you live on a busy road, take her out to an area with 'medium' traffic...or even no traffic...every alternative environment away from your home is good for training. Every time she looks away (bird, sound...or you use a toy to distract her) you try to get her focus back...and slowly you increase the stress level (bicycle in the distance ... closer etc. etc...)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 One thing I found to be a godsend if I got stuck on a walk with another dog coming (with a reactive dog) is pulling into a driveway to give yourself space if you can't cross the road. As others have suggested, I would try LAT as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Surprisingly stuffed dogs can be really good to practice on - check out your local op shop. It's great because it gives you much more control over the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Have you tried the Look At That Game (LAT)...Have a look hereSure it needs a controlled environment & you gradually work up to more & more stimulants, but a lot of people, myself included, have found it a wonderful tool. Do you teach her tricks using a clicker & treats...what sort of mental stimulation/training do you give her ?? Yes, I have tried that! I do like it, and so does she, but am yet to see it work in high stressed situations! She gets too focused on the other thing, and tunes me out - and the clicker. I totally think it would work to gradually work up to more stimulants, but how would you do that? Every day is different, as different people walk around at different times, and its never the same. You know? And for mental stimulation - walking on a leash is actually a lot of mental stimulation. Play-wise and outside walking, i've taught her to 'catch' from far away, we play 'hide and seek' in my house - my fav :) And usually my brother might play with her and gets her to sit, lie down and roll over. I also do a calming game, where I teach her to focus on only me (and treats) and looking into my eyes - and as she begins to calm more (ears relaxed, leg relaxed or even lying down), i reward her. Its great for when she gets too excited about something, as i just need to look at her and get her to sit, and she calms down. If this is the case, then you are either too late with your click or you are too close to the stimuli...or both. No matter what type of training you do to fix this, you are going to have to build up the stimuli & that could mean taking her for walks where there is less dogs. I did it with my girl in the environment of agility trials, & I always practice it when I am on walks with her where she might bump into a little white fluffy. Did you have a read of the notes I pointed you to ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lisaspence Posted October 20, 2015 Author Share Posted October 20, 2015 Have you tried the Look At That Game (LAT)...Have a look hereSure it needs a controlled environment & you gradually work up to more & more stimulants, but a lot of people, myself included, have found it a wonderful tool. Do you teach her tricks using a clicker & treats...what sort of mental stimulation/training do you give her ?? Yes, I have tried that! I do like it, and so does she, but am yet to see it work in high stressed situations! She gets too focused on the other thing, and tunes me out - and the clicker. I totally think it would work to gradually work up to more stimulants, but how would you do that? Every day is different, as different people walk around at different times, and its never the same. You know? And for mental stimulation - walking on a leash is actually a lot of mental stimulation. Play-wise and outside walking, i've taught her to 'catch' from far away, we play 'hide and seek' in my house - my fav :) And usually my brother might play with her and gets her to sit, lie down and roll over. I also do a calming game, where I teach her to focus on only me (and treats) and looking into my eyes - and as she begins to calm more (ears relaxed, leg relaxed or even lying down), i reward her. Its great for when she gets too excited about something, as i just need to look at her and get her to sit, and she calms down. If this is the case, then you are either too late with your click or you are too close to the stimuli...or both. No matter what type of training you do to fix this, you are going to have to build up the stimuli & that could mean taking her for walks where there is less dogs. I did it with my girl in the environment of agility trials, & I always practice it when I am on walks with her where she might bump into a little white fluffy. Did you have a read of the notes I pointed you to ??? Just read through the notes you pointed me towards, and they look great. Thanks so much for that. Im going to try building the LAT up with her and start walking her at different times - it gets hard when I have work or uni, but now that its coming up to holidays, I can definitely start working on gradually building up the stimulus for her. Probably start with some mid-day walks (as no one is out and about at these times... too many busy people I think) and move on to different locations (i've got some thoughts on some parks that might work). Our usual walks are in the morning, and now looking at it - its probably one of the worst times to walk her (at this stage). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Spotted Devil Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Just remember that clickers are very powerful - whether you get the timing right or wrong. I prefer using a verbal marker as it gives a little more leeway if your timing isn't great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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