Salukifan Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 (edited) This is a question many members of the public would like to ask... and I have to say with sgs. ome of the breeds you do think, they are going to sock it away.... especially if you consider some breeds might have 10-12 pups and charge $2,000 to $3,000.... not uncommon say with German Shepherd DoSo for the public eye that is perhaps $25,000 income from the bitch.... and then on Dogzonline there are currently 69 litter notices for Australia which does seem like there could be a lot of demand..... I breed Aussie Shepherds and we average litters more of 4-6 pups and generally sell between $1500 & $1800.... It's not all profit. And GSD folk routinely pay $50K to import quality dogs. That's just the cost of the dog! Steve has a point. Why shouldn't people who breed good dogs charge a decent price for pups? You'll pay big bucks in a pet shop for a dog of unknown parents, with no health testing and separated from its litter mates far too early. It's my personal view that people who think decent dog breeders make $$ out of dog breeding don't know any dog breeders. Leading that push are the AR brigade who just love the term "greeders". Generally that mob know SFA about dogs generally. Edited October 20, 2015 by Haredown Whippets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dame Aussie Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 (edited) I have no issue with good breeders making a profit. There are also lots of hidden costs in breeding and doing it well. I admit I do recoil occasionally at the price of certain breeds! Edited October 20, 2015 by Dame Aussie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Why shouldn't good ethical breeders make a profit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgrubber Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Let me see 24 hour a day carer for bitch and puppies... times 8 weeks just for the puppies... never mind caring for the bitch over her life time and the pregnancy... If you were hiring people to do that - You'd probably need at least three shifts with a small overlap for hand over... perhaps less at night but still, things can go wrong at night... Maybe we will say 16 hours a day... and multiply that out by minimum wage - no oncosts like sick leave or super. So minimum wage is $17.29, casual is +25% on that, 16 hours, 8 weeks, 7 days a week (can't be bothered working out Sunday loading). $19364.80 or for 10 puppies, or just under $2000 each - and we haven't been near a vet or health test or dog food yet. So your average ANKC breeder who is breeding for the betterment and joy of the breed - is not even making minimum wage selling puppies from a litter of 10 at $2K each. Don't even get me started on what the rescues are doing. You say they get the dogs for free, but if they had to pay someone to do what they do... That's why volunteers are so important. There's no profit in it. ^ This! If breeding dogs was so lucrative, the market would be flooded with pups! It's a lot of work, a lot of risk, and a lot of investment. Sure, when things work out you may get a return of $20k for an investment of $3000. But you have no guarantee of this outcome. You may end up with a singleton and need to do a Ceasar. Puppies are fun and loveable. But a large litter turns your life upside down. Very few employers would respond well to "can I take 8 weeks off, my dog is about to have puppies". Also, there are longer term costs. You may have to run on two or three pups before you get one you want to breed from. You may end up supporting your bitch for six or eight years after she is retired. You may be restricted in where you can live (eg., kennel zone in WA). Think of it as a bit like other labors of love that can potentially make a little money . . . restoring antique cars or boats, potting, orchid breeding . . . etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kajirin Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 As a pet owner and not a breeder, I don't mind paying good money for a quality pup that has had health testing etc. With my first boy, 9 years ago he cost $1000 [which was the going rate back then, it's now around $2000-$2500]. He came from a litter of 5. The stud dog fee was from recollection around $2500-$3000. One male pup was kept for showing, the rest sold as pets. I don't think the breeder made much of a profit from the litter after medical/feeding costs, time off from work to ensure the pups were safe etc. As it turned out the pup kept for showing/breeding ended up shooting blanks, so he was desexed and sold as pet. So that particular showing/breeding line they were going for was lost. So all in all, if they make a profit on a litter good on them - as it all goes back into the showing, breeding and rearing of new generations...so we as the public can enjoy happy and hopefully healthy dogs to have in the family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 As it turned out the pup kept for showing/breeding ended up shooting blanks, so he was desexed and sold as pet.... sorry my ignorance, but why desexing a dog that's shooting blanks anyway?... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kajirin Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 (edited) As it turned out the pup kept for showing/breeding ended up shooting blanks, so he was desexed and sold as pet.... sorry my ignorance, but why desexing a dog that's shooting blanks anyway?... I guess in case of testicular cancer down the track - ETA also in SA desexed and microchipped dogs are around half price for yearly registration. Edited October 20, 2015 by Kajirin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agility Dogs Posted October 20, 2015 Share Posted October 20, 2015 Couldn't agree more with what a number have said. I'd love for good breeders to make a little for their effort. For me - the last thing I ask is how much a dog is going to cost (purchase price). If everything else stacks up then a few hundred dollars either way is NOTHING compared to the costs of owning a dog for their life time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 (edited) If you ran your dogs like a business and it had its own bank account, all profits going in, all costs going out there is pretty much going to be a big red figure at the end. If you take into account everything from initial purchase of the dog/s, feeding, vet care, training and club fees, travel, vet costs and health testing you would be well into a loss. Then you get to breeding. Vet fees, stud fees, travel/flights/accomodation, registrations, chipping, vaccinations, feeding pups, whelping boxes/bedding, extra heating/cooling/water/gas/electricity, puppy packs, travel to airports if applicable etc. I am quite sure there is stuff I have forgotten. But you would definitely not make a profit. Most breeders either look to bring in dogs from other breeders at times, import semen or dogs/bitches. I will go for the breeder who does the best by their breed. If they make a profit? Great it goes back into the dogs. People cannot believe breeders would breed for the betterment of the breed and not for making money. How many hobbies do people have that makes them money? Most cost money and some a lot of money. I for one wished my horses would make a profit, they are expensive little buggers! Dog breeding is a hobby and done right is expensive. If a breeder makes a profit and delivers me a well bred, healthy, well adjusted puppy, well good on them!!! Edited October 21, 2015 by OSoSwift Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 It doesn't matter what the secondary goal is as long as the health and welfare of the dogs and the breed takes priority and is never compromised on.Trying to breed a champion, or a working dog can see a breeder get into trouble if they compromise to get their goal at the dog's or the bred's expense just as those who place profit over welfare. The more you do something the better you get and you cant keep doing something well unless you are independently wealthy without some return to at least over all cover your expenses. There is a good reason why the ATO dont want dog breeders to say they are intending to make a profit because once they do they are able to claim all of their expenses against their income. That includes electricity, phones, stationary, travel expenses, fencing, housing,as well as the vets, food, bedding, stud services etc . Animal rights and out of touch Journos like to report how much a breeder has made over a period by calculating income - never considering what the out lay had to be for years before and throughout that period. You have to sell a lot of puppies when the codes in some states require you to spend a fortune on housing and dogs kept for breeding do have to eat, be housed and be vetted for up to two years before there is any kind of promise of a return. You have to be breeding a hell of a lot of puppies before you can say next litter Im in the black and expect to stay there. Research says that most people who breed dogs last about 5 years - that's how long it takes em to work out that even though the puppies are expensive and they can get top dollar for them that they cant make any money out of their first couple of girls and it takes too much work and sacrifice to stick with it. You see 200 french bulldog breeders now advertising but most of them Bigger litters have bigger expenses. They are usually with bigger dogs which need bigger more expensive bedding, flea tick and worm treatments,bigger feed bills,more cleaning, greater risk of the dog you keep for breeding having to be eliminated at 12 months of age due to high hip scores etc. Few people understand what I do here to prepare a pup that's going home to be responsible for a flock of sheep or chickens or that will live as a therapy dog for an autistic child etc. Areas that can be used for whelping ,rearing and socialising and training puppies and keeping adults dogs safe etc dont just magically appear from the sky either. Fencing and housing in small areas set aside for the initial bonding process for puppies cost money to build and maintain, They are whelped in my home but they still have to have confinement when whelping or I end up with the whole house looking like a murder scene. Large pens and big whelping boxes become part of the furniture and it takes over my whole life for weeks not counting the hours and resources I put in prior to the big day or between them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunny1shine Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 You see 200 french bulldog breeders now advertising but most of them please finish this sentence! (Frenchies are I breed I've been following for friends who are interested but I've never been able to wholeheartedly recommend the breed to them, low litter sizes, health issues, I would love the breed to thrive and not be such a novelty, but from what I've seen the high prices per pup are completely necessary for good breeders, but on the flip side are making $$ $$ flash in the wrong type of breeders eyes) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 (edited) I think if I charged expenses plus lets say a 10% profit for a pup I would likely be charging way way more than I actually do now. IMO it is a good thing I am not adding everything up! I wish I could make a profit! Breaking even or even having a few dollars left in the hand may be possible after the occasional litter, but if we are talking profit (in the manner of running a business) then everything spent to get to that point needs to be taken into consideration (from 'set up costs' to 'running expenses' etc). Remember that what is incoming from puppy sales is Gross profit not net. If you are talking net profit you have to take out expenses first. Expenses means everything from purchase price of the bitch, to what it costs to raise her from a pup, to research and resources and ongoing training (books, magazines, internet for networking, seminar attendance, attendance at events and meetings etc) to titling, health testing, effort put into training, facilities required (fencing, containment, whelping room and supplies and even property purchase costs if you buy a property with breeding dogs in mind), grooming costs (electricity, products, time, equipment), advertising (including website construction and maintenance, website ads such as a DOL listing, magazine advertising etc), membership fees, regular health care and maintenance, food and supplements, stud fees, travel to the stud dog (or if it is your own dog, his purchase cost, care, health tests, titling, feeding etc etc), importing frozen semen, semen storage, progesterone testing, artificial insemination, travel to and from everything, ultrasound, any veterinary care required for whelping (minimum post whelping check of bitch and pups for me, which is a house call), feeding extra to an in whelp/lactating bitch, washing (not a small expense! at least one load per day minimum with costs for electricity and laundry powder - and last litter I killed my washing machine and needed to purchase a new one!), extra heating or cooling expenses for the litter, worming, vaccination, microchipping and registration for the litter plus travel for vet visits - I also do a full well check at the vets for each puppy before they go home, and DNA tests or other health testing you are doing on the puppies, taking time of work to raise the litter (8 weeks for me usually), cost of feeding the litter till at least 8 weeks of age and time and money spent on litter raising such as equipment for the puppy yard (see www.puppyculture.com for what can go into raising a litter well), money spent on printing of information material for new puppy owners (so computer and printer costs and ink/paper costs), cost of items provided in the puppy pack, time spent interviewing prospective owners and emailing (many hours), time spent with prospective owners including visits to your home, any additional transport you may provide such a to airports if pups are flying to their new home, post purchase assistance which can include many hours on the phone and email as well as home visits (and in my case a twice yearly newsletter as well). Add to that that it is as mentioned against the code of ethics to breed every season and there are strict rules to be followed about how often a bitch can be bred. While some costs can be averaged out over more than one litter, a lot of costs are ones that will be repeated for each litter a breeder has. IMO I think puppy buyers are lucky that most breeders who pour their heart, soul and money into breeding are not charging what their 'product' really costs in monetary terms. I think if we were forced to do that, the purchase price of many pups would go up significantly. Edited October 21, 2015 by espinay2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roova Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 You see 200 french bulldog breeders now advertising but most of them please finish this sentence! (Frenchies are I breed I've been following for friends who are interested but I've never been able to wholeheartedly recommend the breed to them, low litter sizes, health issues, I would love the breed to thrive and not be such a novelty, but from what I've seen the high prices per pup are completely necessary for good breeders, but on the flip side are making $$ $$ flash in the wrong type of breeders eyes) Just adding my two cents worth. Even 'well bred' Frenchies seem to need operations such as nostril widening and soft palate being done. Im part of a Frenchie facebook page and Im pretty sure most on there have had this operation. Its kind of astounding there are huge waiting lists for people prepared to pay $3000+ knowing there will also be future operations needed (none of them particularly cheap). Are breathing issues even something which can be avoided through different breeding decisions? Should a dog be included in a breeding program which needed its nostrils widened or its palate done? How is the breed being bettered if this isn't happening? If you consider a litter of six puppies bringing in $18,000 and breeders Im sure have more than one female, doesn't that give so many more option to afford to really focus on improving the breed or even eradicating these known breed problems? On top of that most end up being treated like delicate flowers and not exercised hard or allowed to extend themselves too much. Im not sure how many get to enjoy a life other dogs might, but in saying that their nature is generally adorable and I wouldn't be without mine lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 (edited) You see 200 french bulldog breeders now advertising but most of them please finish this sentence! (Frenchies are I breed I've been following for friends who are interested but I've never been able to wholeheartedly recommend the breed to them, low litter sizes, health issues, I would love the breed to thrive and not be such a novelty, but from what I've seen the high prices per pup are completely necessary for good breeders, but on the flip side are making $ $ flash in the wrong type of breeders eyes) Sorry I was doing two things at once You see 200 french bulldog breeders now advertising but most of them will stop pretty quickly when they work out that the sums they did considering breeding them dont match their results and its bloody hard yakka. Most of them will be gone within 2 or three litters. Edited October 21, 2015 by Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 No offence to the OP (heaven knows so many ask this question) but the more I think about this issue generally, the more annoyed I get. If you want "just a dog" and don't want to pay a fair price for a well bred, well raised animal, then there are plenty of "just a breeders" out there willing to supply you. Of course, if you happen to have issues with puppy raising, or further questions about the breed guess who'll be answering them in places like here.. those responsible breeders being sniped at for charging a decent price for their efforts. And of course if it all goes south and puppy needs a new home, guess which breeders line up to provide breed rescue?? And guess who put their hands in their pockets to do it? Not the Gumtree brigade, that's for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 (edited) Yep I have to admit that over the years its the people who buy my breed from a nuff nuff or a pet shop and then expect me to advise them and be there for them when it goes belly up that give me a pain. Edited October 21, 2015 by Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 (edited) Speaking for Whippets, the NSW Club rescue rehomes about one dog a month. With the exception of two dogs (which were rehomed with support from their breeders), ALL Whippets have been BYB. Some issues relate to temperaments. There have been some hard luck stories but frankly many issues relate to dogs inappropriately placed with people who have neither the knowledge nor the lifestyle that suits the breed. And of course with the pound dogs, who knows. Yet it is the registered breeders and members of the NSW Whippet Club that provide advice, support, get the dogs out of pounds, arrange foster care, vet bills (no shortage of those) and rehoming. The funds for that are provided by individuals connected to the Club. Maybe they should be charging MORE. Edited October 21, 2015 by Haredown Whippets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 If you consider a litter of six puppies bringing in $18,000 and breeders Im sure have more than one female, doesn't that give so many more option to afford to really focus on improving the breed or even eradicating these known breed problems? Plenty of breeders only have one female at a time to breed from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 You see 200 french bulldog breeders now advertising but most of them please finish this sentence! (Frenchies are I breed I've been following for friends who are interested but I've never been able to wholeheartedly recommend the breed to them, low litter sizes, health issues, I would love the breed to thrive and not be such a novelty, but from what I've seen the high prices per pup are completely necessary for good breeders, but on the flip side are making $ $ flash in the wrong type of breeders eyes) Just adding my two cents worth. Even 'well bred' Frenchies seem to need operations such as nostril widening and soft palate being done. Im part of a Frenchie facebook page and Im pretty sure most on there have had this operation. Its kind of astounding there are huge waiting lists for people prepared to pay $3000+ knowing there will also be future operations needed (none of them particularly cheap). Are breathing issues even something which can be avoided through different breeding decisions? Should a dog be included in a breeding program which needed its nostrils widened or its palate done? How is the breed being bettered if this isn't happening? If you consider a litter of six puppies bringing in $18,000 and breeders Im sure have more than one female, doesn't that give so many more option to afford to really focus on improving the breed or even eradicating these known breed problems? On top of that most end up being treated like delicate flowers and not exercised hard or allowed to extend themselves too much. Im not sure how many get to enjoy a life other dogs might, but in saying that their nature is generally adorable and I wouldn't be without mine lol. Yes breathing issues are something that can be eliminated via selection for that and no a dog that has nostril problems shouldn't be included in a breeding program - but again its all about what the breeder is selecting for and what their goal is and what they are prepared to compromise on to get it. Breeding for money isnt the only thing that can lead breeders into a place they shouldnt go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpha bet Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 One thing that breeders will need to remember is that there is the chance for puppy purchasers to start to claim back from breeders for health problems... Remember that the legal system in Australia deem puppies as a product... hence to some extent there is a requirement for a warranty. If the purchaser wishes to make a claim thru Small Claims many of the breeders MAY find themselves having to reimburse for expensive operations or having to take dogs back and refunding.... or at the very least having to attend the Small Claims Tribuneral and justifing their actions. As this is the case then the breeds who have these severe health problems such as the Frenchies will need to cover their backsides some how... This fact should be pushed more by the ANKC to ensure that breeders are aware of the need for health testing. After all if you sell a pup and there are health issues that can be tested for and you don't... then the courts will question WHY? There have already been a few cases presented to Small Claims and in one case someone claimed a Pet Shop sold a cross bred dog who didn't grow up to look like the same type of cross bred puppy the purchaser already had ??????? apparently she bought the second one to breed with the first and was disappointed that they were not of type. Food for thought! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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