Breeders

[fabel]

gidday everyone. I dont want to start an aurgument here but i often read on here and in other groups that breeders dont breed for the money they breed for the love of dogs and the love of their chosen breed and improving that breed. ok good. But just curious to know why some breeder's especially those breeds that have large litters charge so much for their puppies? Up to $2000 or more for puppys in a litter of 10 pups is a hell of a lot of dog food. Times that by 2 bitches or 1 bitch having 2 litters a year and that's a good profit. Even if there are vets bills such as health tests, x-rays, ultra sounds, or cesareans involved Im sure it's not $20,000 worth.

?

[Dory the Doted One]

What do you think is a fair price, fabel? Not being bitchy, I'm honestly quite curious.

Whenever someone thinks something is too expensive, my first thought is...well how much do you think it's worth?

Do you think that if a litter is small, the puppies should have a higher purchase price?

[Aziah]

I feel sure the upkeep of multiple dogs, running health tests, feeding, general care, time and exhibition runs well above "profit".

Most breeders put puppy sales back into their dogs.

ETA: let's not forget the thousands of $ that many spend on importing live dogs/frozen semen.

It all adds up.

What do you think they should be worth?

Edited October 20, 2015 by Aziah

[megan_]

There are puppy mills and dodgy breeders who do make huge profits - churning out litter after litter without health tests etc.

I doubt anyone who breeds ethically is making much, if any money from breeding the occasional litter of pups. The types of breeders that I'd be interested in for my next pup:

* choose the best dog for their bitch, including importing if necessary.

* compete in sports (lots of training, seminars, entry fees etc)

* health test (not just normal vet visits, getting hip scores, genetic tests etc)

* provide a lifetime of advice, puppy packs etc (their time costs money too)

* love their dogs like family, so they get great care (which can be very expensive if a c-section is required, for example)

[Salukifan]

Fair question.

I think the answer as to how much a breeder charges tends to be set by the market. More popular breeds often cost more and less popular breeds less.

I think there is a difference between breeding with profit as a motive and breeding and making a profit.

Yep some litters will go like clockwork, produce large litters and make the breeder a profit. Although if you factor in the costs of showing that profit soon erodes.

Others make a loss. Health testing, importing semen, semen transplant costs, caesars, small litters.. happens to everyone eventually.

No breeder breeds for charity though and I don't see why they should.

The challenge is finding the right breeder - and its easy to sift out those who churn out the pups for $$$ and cut corners with their breeding dogs.

I know plenty of people who will drop $2,000 on a trip or a new TV without batting an eyelid. I find the more interesting question is "why do they expect to get a carefully bred and raised pup for less than that"???

Edited October 20, 2015 by Haredown Whippets

[Staffyluv]

gidday everyone. I dont want to start an aurgument here but i often read on here and in other groups that breeders dont breed for the money they breed for the love of dogs and the love of their chosen breed and improving that breed. ok good. But just curious to know why some breeder's especially those breeds that have large litters charge so much for their puppies? Up to $2000 or more for puppys in a litter of 10 pups is a hell of a lot of dog food. Times that by 2 bitches or 1 bitch having 2 litters a year and that's a good profit. Even if there are vets bills such as health tests, x-rays, ultra sounds, or cesareans involved Im sure it's not $20,000 worth.

?

I would think to help cover costs like mating costs (bring the bitch to the dog or vice versa or AI), health testing, feed, ultrasounds, xrays, registration, microchipping, vaccinating, buying litter boxes and other things needed (electricity for heating and cooling) etc (even helping cover the costs of previous or subsequent litters that are not as profitable as some litters), to weed out those that may not be the best home for the dog, to help cover the cost of their time and training of puppies (lots of pups are toilet trained or leash trained by the time we get them).

I realise that a lot of the time breeders don't make profit or don't make much profit but if they do - why not??

We usually sell things to make money - if we are good at breeding dogs and do the right thing, I think they should make a profit.

[huski]

I couldn't care less if a breeder makes money breeding. If they are breeding responsibly and tick all the boxes, good on them. Most breeders I know will put any money they make off a litter back into the breeding program (buying more dogs, importing, etc), but even if they didn't, why does it matter?

[Willem]

....Times that by 2 bitches or 1 bitch having 2 litters a year ....?

...that's not how a responsable breeder does it....

[Salukifan]

....Times that by 2 bitches or 1 bitch having 2 litters a year ....?

...that's not how a responsable breeder does it....

Good pick up.

It would be a breach of the ANKC Code of ethics for a breeder to breed bitches twice a year. The exception permits ONE back to back mating and then you have to have 18 months off for the bitch from memory.

I certainly don't know any responsible registered breeders living it up on litter profits.

Edited October 20, 2015 by Haredown Whippets

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Let me see

24 hour a day carer for bitch and puppies... times 8 weeks just for the puppies... never mind caring for the bitch over her life time and the pregnancy...

If you were hiring people to do that - You'd probably need at least three shifts with a small overlap for hand over... perhaps less at night but still, things can go wrong at night...

Maybe we will say 16 hours a day... and multiply that out by minimum wage - no oncosts like sick leave or super.

So minimum wage is $17.29, casual is +25% on that, 16 hours, 8 weeks, 7 days a week (can't be bothered working out Sunday loading). $19364.80 or for 10 puppies, or just under $2000 each - and we haven't been near a vet or health test or dog food yet.

So your average ANKC breeder who is breeding for the betterment and joy of the breed - is not even making minimum wage selling puppies from a litter of 10 at $2K each.

Don't even get me started on what the rescues are doing. You say they get the dogs for free, but if they had to pay someone to do what they do... That's why volunteers are so important. There's no profit in it.

[Rebanne]

some costs in my experience 3 litters resulting in 2 pups, 8 pups, 6 pups

stud fee $1000, $1200, $1500

FS implant around $600 (x 2)

Prog testing approx $45 each test, maybe 4 or 5 each litter

C-section x 3 average $1000

Vaccinations and microchips each puppy, varied but around $65 each pup

Registration of each pup around $30

Health tests of bitches and puppies, Greyhound Neuropathy at approx $95 each

Hip/Elbow xrays of my personal breeding dogs in the hundreds, haven't done any for 3 years.

Extra heating and cooling costs depending on the season.

ALL the food!

One pup sold in the 1st litter, covered the stud fee only. 7 pups sold 2nd litter covered the costs. 3rd litter 3 pups sold, didn't come close to covering the costs.

I lost several thousand on the 1st litter, cleared around $2500 on the 2nd ( if I didn't add it all up exact ), lost more thousands on the 3rd and the 4th I am planning will lose more thousands. I am doing it for the breed. No other reason and I think I need my head read when I see it all written out like this!!

[BlaznHotAussies]

If profit means a breeder is making enough money to be able to spend time with their dogs AND improve the breed AND spend money on things like importing dogs and/or semen, not just pumping out litters from the same three dogs over and over, I think they're doing very well. Obviously that includes all relevant genetic tests, hip & elbow scores, selling well-cared for puppies with microchips & registration... I don't think you can ask for much more.

Plus having a really good set up for breeding dogs is expensive! Feeding, exercising, cleaning kennels, grooming, etc. all take time as well.

[Staffyluv]

If there is anyone making profit in rescue, I would be very surprised.

Bella came into rescue with a dislocated hip, torn cruciate and a few other things.

Her surgery alone was over $2000 (thank doG for those that donated but I still paid nearly $1000 towards her health personally), not to mention she was in care with me for nearly 6 months by the time we had rehab after removing her femoral head and fixing her knee.

Then there was desexing, feeding, worming, tick and flea control, training.

She was sold for the grand total of $400!!!

She is just one of my fosters - I don't think rescue would ever even break even on a foster dog.. Thanks to the generous public who donate money, time and goods that help rescue so much.

Yeah, huge profits in rescue (not)...

[Scottsmum]

My Dad and I literally had this conversation the other day.

He was saying they never saw a lot of change from $300 bucks per pup 35 years ago when they were breeding weimaraner puppies.

I think, if you find a truly responsible breeder who cares for their bitch, keeps her in good condition, worms, vaccinates, chips puppies, socialises them & gives them basic training / manners.

I think litters of 10 are pretty rare, if we were talking about a german shepherd you'd be looking at a litter of maybe 8 max. Sure there was recently a malinois who had 17, but I'd go as far as saying that's exceptional.

I wouldn't class my fictional breeder as responsible if they did have a bitch that had a large litter for her breed and went back and mated here again very quickly after that (I am specifically saying a litter of 8-10, and mating her again within 6 months - I am not trying to offend anyone here.)

On top of that, my idea "responsible breeder" would chip, vaccinate, worm & flea the pups, would have all breed related genetic screening done for the bitch and sire would be the same, the bitch would be seeing a vet a number of times (pre-mating, during pregnancy and post-whelping).

+ bitch and pups would be on a high quality diet during the pregnancy + for the 12 weeks the pups were in my home - so 2-ish months of pregnancy + another 3 while raising pups - so 5 months worth of kilos and kilos of meat / a raw diet or god knows how much high quality large breed puppy kibble - or some combination of the two.

Sure if you did have 20 pups & made $2000 a pup you'd make $40,000 gross - and I don't know what that would be net.

But realistically, I think your starting point would be closer to a MAXIMUM of 18 pups @ maybe 1500 each (assuming they're all top quality, mains registered) for a max of $27,000 gross. Again, hard to estimate net.

All in all - I don't think a responsible, registered breeder makes much of a "profit". I think back yard breeders who put a bitch and a dog together - either on purpose or by accident and turn around and sell the offspring are more likely to see any form of profit.

Any how, that's just my 2 cents worth. It's been a long time since I have been involved with selling animals for "profit" (both my parents had stud dogs and horses when I was a kid / teen but I haven't been involved in 10 years or so - but I do know we never got rich off our horses or cattle dogs, foxies or weims....pure and registered or BYB)

Edit: Don't even look at profit in rescue:

Desex, vaccinate, chip, flea, worm, foster / board, feed, train, care, walk, groom, advertise. You're getting an absolute bargain for your $400.

Edited October 20, 2015 by Scottsmum

[Kavik]

* Importing dogs and semen

* working or competing in sports (or conformation for those that buy conformation lines) to evaluate their worthiness to breed

* choose suitable compatible partners

* care and upkeep of the dogs

* health testing

* stud fees

All add up to a lot of money!

[flame ryder]

Interesting what Haredown Whippets says -

"Fair question.

I think the answer as to how much a breeder charges tends to be set by the market."

Brings it back to my worry about the future cost of dogs in SA after the de-sex-all-dogs rule has been in place a few years. Hmmm

[alpha bet]

This is a question many members of the public would like to ask... and I have to say with some of the breeds you do think, they are going to sock it away.... especially if you consider some breeds might have 10-12 pups and charge $2,000 to $3,000.... not uncommon say with German Shepherd Dogs. So for the public eye that is perhaps $25,000 income from the bitch.... and then on Dogzonline there are currently 69 litter notices for Australia which does seem like there could be a lot of demand..... I breed Aussie Shepherds and we average litters more of 4-6 pups and generally sell between $1500 & $1800....

In our breed if a litter was even average 6 pups you have to remember that the sale of one pup covers the stud fee.... one pup covers the Vet Fees... one pup covers feeding and registrations..... one pup is often not sold and retained for potential breeding down the line. So this only leaves two pups for potential to cover other costs such as the DNA tests, eye test, hip shoulder X-rays which comes to perhaps $1,000 once off per dog. Then if you want to get import semen this covers to a few thousand dollars before you even see if you can actually get any pups....

So if the public really want to do the sums..... then a breeders hobby with perhaps even 2-3 litters per year might actually make $4,000 over the year .... IF your lucky and have good size litters and no c-sections or strange health problems.... such as a stud dog dying from snake bite (vet bill $2,000 conservatively).... then there are travel expenses for stud dogs interstate.... running a car to go back and forth to locations.... whelping boxes... scales... premium mince for puppies... advertising..... registrations/membership..... vaccinations..... etc....... etc..... etc.... etc.....

Edited October 20, 2015 by alpha bet

[Kavik]

Interesting what Haredown Whippets says -

"Fair question.

I think the answer as to how much a breeder charges tends to be set by the market."

Brings it back to my worry about the future cost of dogs in SA after the de-sex-all-dogs rule has been in place a few years. Hmmm

Some breeds are more expensive than others, for sure. I'm looking at a different breed to those I currently have, and puppy price is likely to be double what I paid for Nitro.

[Little Gifts]

I don't think some breeders charge enough in comparison to the quality of puppy they are providing a new owner and ongoing support offered, particularly when you compare it to puppy farm dogs sold in pet shops for a ridiculous amount of money that come with absolutely no guarantee or ongoing support. How come people don't question retail prices but think good breeders are a rip off? Do people really think just because it comes from a shop it should cost more? Or do they think that the mother dog does all the work anyway so puppies shouldn't cost much to raise? How come the last puppy in the window encourages people to whip out their credit card while the last puppy in a breeder's litter is considered the dodgy one no-one else wants and should be discounted? Genuine questions. I really don't understand how people are happy to drop a wad of cash at a pet shop on a whim but are iffy about how quality breeders run their businesses. To me a good breeder is like a craftsman and good craftsmanship should be applauded and rewarded. And good craftsmanship lasts a lifetime while you can dress anything up in a window to make it look pretty.

People are strange.

[Steve]

Not sure why its become expected that because someone breeds dogs they should not ever make a profit now and then and take a reward for themselves as payment for a job well done or buy some new dog beds or dog toys.

Cant see why its an issue if someone who is good at what they do and has a primary focus on what is good for the breed and their dogs that they should remain poverty stricken - especially when they watch numpties and pet shops getting top dollars

Its a supply and demand issue anyway. No point in saying how much it costs to breed em and you need your money back if no one is prepared to pay what you need to cover your expenses .And if I can get more money Im not a mug Im not in it primarily to make money but Im not happy to loose it either if I don't have to.

This is the only activity I know where the propoganda has actually perpetuated the idea that those who produce better quality more often and get more money for what they do are somehow deficient. The whole idea that I should ask less money because asking what I can get for them is some sign Im a lesser breeder is nuts.

In his report into purebred dog breeding bateson said "Those breeders who deliver genuinely high welfare standards should be rewarded and recognised for the efforts, both in the show ring and in the market place,”