How Much To Pay For A Blue Amstaff

[Maddy]

What Raineth said.

Very interesting about the Weimaraner colour. And apologies for my crap spelling.

So when they talk about "blue heelers" - is that anything to do with the blue gene in the article or something else again. Especially the blue that stumpy tails get? I know cattle dogs can have a bunch of problems with deafness and other genetic stuff too.

The blue in a blue heeler is not actually blue, it's black. They're genetically a black and tan dog, that is piebald and has ticking. To break that down..

Black and tan dog -> simple enough.

Piebald -> Usually extreme, with just an eye patch or incomplete mask. This means your black and tan dog is now mostly white with just either black patches or red (sable) patches on its head.

Ticking/roaning -> Puppy is born white but as it grows, spots begin to develop (like how dallies are born almost white). Those spots are fully coloured (not diluted in pigment) but because of how roaning/ticking works, they appear diluted. In roaning, the density is greatly increased, compared to ticking which is usually defined spots.

Genetically..

KK

s^ps^p

T^rT^r

Edit:

Idiot Dog is T? for ticking and here are two photos to show how ticking develops..

Idiot Dog as a puppy-

Idiot Dog as a teenager-

Edited October 20, 2015 by Maddy

[Steve]

No amount is too much to pay for anything if you think what you are getting is worth it - so tell me what exactly is it that you think you will be getting other than the colour for your $1600 .What has the breeder put in over and above any other breeder and why are the dogs they breed superior?

Edited October 21, 2015 by Steve

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Steve

The $1600 is for an unpapered dog. The same breeder is offering same puppy with papers for $2800. So that means the breeder is asking $1200 for papers? When we know that ANKC issues papers for around $35 per puppy.

So what I'd want to know is why would anyone want to deal with a breeder who is willing to breach ANKC code of ethics by offering unpapered puppy, and is further willing to charge so much over the cost for something they're supposed to do anyway.

This alone would make me select a different breeder.

[Steve]

Steve

The $1600 is for an unpapered dog. The same breeder is offering same puppy with papers for $2800. So that means the breeder is asking $1200 for papers? When we know that ANKC issues papers for around $35 per puppy.

So what I'd want to know is why would anyone want to deal with a breeder who is willing to breach ANKC code of ethics by offering unpapered puppy, and is further willing to charge so much over the cost for something they're supposed to do anyway.

This alone would make me select a different breeder.

Before we all jump in sometimes the confusion starts with a misunderstanding the breeder may mean not main register papers not no papers at all.

Its common for breeders to charge much more for breeding dogs .

[Florise]

Steve

The $1600 is for an unpapered dog. The same breeder is offering same puppy with papers for $2800. So that means the breeder is asking $1200 for papers? When we know that ANKC issues papers for around $35 per puppy.

So what I'd want to know is why would anyone want to deal with a breeder who is willing to breach ANKC code of ethics by offering unpapered puppy, and is further willing to charge so much over the cost for something they're supposed to do anyway.

This alone would make me select a different breeder.

Sounds like the breeder is trying to bluff the buyer into thinking they are ANKC registered. It would be a rare buyer who would want to pay 1200 for papers.

[persephone]

Steve

The $1600 is for an unpapered dog. The same breeder is offering same puppy with papers for $2800. So that means the breeder is asking $1200 for papers? When we know that ANKC issues papers for around $35 per puppy.

So what I'd want to know is why would anyone want to deal with a breeder who is willing to breach ANKC code of ethics by offering unpapered puppy, and is further willing to charge so much over the cost for something they're supposed to do anyway.

This alone would make me select a different breeder.

Before we all jump in sometimes the confusion starts with a misunderstanding the breeder may mean not main register papers not no papers at all.

Its common for breeders to charge much more for breeding dogs .

I also understood it to mean NO papers..

" $2800 with papers or is willing to sell the pup for $1600 without papers but with a copy of both parents papers."

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

It would be a rare buyer who would want to pay 1200 for papers.

A "rare" buyer for a "rare" blue amstaff - oops.

Steve - only going off what the OP said.

[Steve]

Steve

The $1600 is for an unpapered dog. The same breeder is offering same puppy with papers for $2800. So that means the breeder is asking $1200 for papers? When we know that ANKC issues papers for around $35 per puppy.

So what I'd want to know is why would anyone want to deal with a breeder who is willing to breach ANKC code of ethics by offering unpapered puppy, and is further willing to charge so much over the cost for something they're supposed to do anyway.

This alone would make me select a different breeder.

Before we all jump in sometimes the confusion starts with a misunderstanding the breeder may mean not main register papers not no papers at all.

Its common for breeders to charge much more for breeding dogs .

I also understood it to mean NO papers..

" $2800 with papers or is willing to sell the pup for $1600 without papers but with a copy of both parents papers."

Ah well then they are breaching their code and if they do this because they think they can get away with imagine what else they may be doing - go elsewhere.

[LisaCC]

I suspect something else Mrs RB. I'm not sure but I think the ACD (Heeler) ticking is a gene in itself, like the Merle gene. So whereas in a blue dog each hair is a diluted black (grey-ish) in a Merle dog some hairs are black, some are white and that's what gives the grey effect. I think it might be the same with ticking, so blue and red cattle dogs all have a base colour plus the ticking gene. I'd also assume that the stumpy tail is a bobtail gene, separate from colour, like in various other breeds.

Happy to learn if someone has more info tho!

A blue merle does not have any dilute genes. They grey colour isn't dilute. They are genetically a black dog with the merle (the grey bits) a separate masking gene on top.

A Cattle Dog "blue", they are "roan". Their base colour is actually white with the black or red ticking over the top. Doggenetics

Ah maddy already explained it yea, genetics in that link ^

So yea both give a bluish effect but neither are actually "blue".

Edited October 21, 2015 by LisaCC

[Dame Aussie]

Its interesting. My Aussie is red merle and when we first got her she almost looked white. All the red markings on her body took a few months to come in fully.

[Simply Grand]

I suspect something else Mrs RB. I'm not sure but I think the ACD (Heeler) ticking is a gene in itself, like the Merle gene. So whereas in a blue dog each hair is a diluted black (grey-ish) in a Merle dog some hairs are black, some are white and that's what gives the grey effect. I think it might be the same with ticking, so blue and red cattle dogs all have a base colour plus the ticking gene. I'd also assume that the stumpy tail is a bobtail gene, separate from colour, like in various other breeds.

Happy to learn if someone has more info tho!

A blue merle does not have any dilute genes. They grey colour isn't dilute. They are genetically a black dog with the merle (the grey bits) a separate masking gene on top.

A Cattle Dog "blue", they are "roan". Their base colour is actually white with the black or red ticking over the top. Doggenetics

Ah maddy already explained it yea, genetics in that link ^

So yea both give a bluish effect but neither are actually "blue".

Yep Lisa, that's what I was saying, I think my punctuation made it confusing :) I said in a blue dog each hair is a dilute blue, a Merle dog has black and white hairs that make it look grey.

Edited October 21, 2015 by Simply Grand

[Simply Grand]

Steve

The $1600 is for an unpapered dog. The same breeder is offering same puppy with papers for $2800. So that means the breeder is asking $1200 for papers? When we know that ANKC issues papers for around $35 per puppy.

So what I'd want to know is why would anyone want to deal with a breeder who is willing to breach ANKC code of ethics by offering unpapered puppy, and is further willing to charge so much over the cost for something they're supposed to do anyway.

This alone would make me select a different breeder.

Sounds like the breeder is trying to bluff the buyer into thinking they are ANKC registered. It would be a rare buyer who would want to pay 1200 for papers.

That's what I was thinking too, they may be banking on no one actually being willing to pay $2800 instread of $1600 so they don't have to provide papers. Then if a buyer does want papers there is some mysterious issue...

[OSoSwift]

Steve

The $1600 is for an unpapered dog. The same breeder is offering same puppy with papers for $2800. So that means the breeder is asking $1200 for papers? When we know that ANKC issues papers for around $35 per puppy.

So what I'd want to know is why would anyone want to deal with a breeder who is willing to breach ANKC code of ethics by offering unpapered puppy, and is further willing to charge so much over the cost for something they're supposed to do anyway.

This alone would make me select a different breeder.

Before we all jump in sometimes the confusion starts with a misunderstanding the breeder may mean not main register papers not no papers at all.

Its common for breeders to charge much more for breeding dogs .

I also understood it to mean NO papers..

" $2800 with papers or is willing to sell the pup for $1600 without papers but with a copy of both parents papers."

Ah well then they are breaching their code and if they do this because they think they can get away with imagine what else they may be doing - go elsewhere.

Unfortunately in WA you can still sell a puppy "without papers" and not be breaching any CoE. Having said that I would go elsewhere.

[dragonwoman]

Unfortunately in WA you can still sell a puppy "without papers" and not be breaching any CoE. Having said that I would go elsewhere.

Well, WA should start complying with ANKC Regs!!!

[OSoSwift]

Unfortunately in WA you can still sell a puppy "without papers" and not be breaching any CoE. Having said that I would go elsewhere.

Well, WA should start complying with ANKC Regs!!!

At this stage they are. just about all breeders do sell with papers but there is the ability to sell without. I am hoping that changes soon.

[OSoSwift]

2.30 A member shall provide to all recipients of dogs sold or otherwise disposed of by that member, written details of:

2.30.1 The breed characteristics; 2.30.2 Vaccination record and / or requirements; 2.30.3 Responsible dog ownership information; and 2.30.4 All documentation required by the member’s Member Body, including a written receipt clearly stating whether the dog was sold with or without a Certificate of Registration (Main or Limited) and any other conditions. For the purposes of this Code "with or without papers" shall mean the Certificate of Registration. 04/08

All puppies must be registered in a litter but they can be sold without papers. Ie the breeder would retain the certificate of pedigree and registration.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

All puppies must be registered in a litter but they can be sold without papers. Ie the breeder would retain the certificate of pedigree and registration.

It's weird the ANKC says new owner must be provided with all documentation required by member body - I'm guessing that might be Dogswest (if the breeder is in WA)...

And the DogsWest CoE - says the exact same thing... member body? Do they mean the amstaff club/association of WA?

But it does seem that the buyer can be provided with a registered puppy and no papers to prove that by both CoE. Argh. Dumb.

[OSoSwift]

The CofE needs looking at for sure

[Steve]

I went to look at buying a pup from WA about a year ago and the breeder told me that as the rest of the litter was sold without papers he would not sell a breeding dog from that litter as it wasnt worth his while.

Had something to do with him having to register the whole litter if he registered one. I didnt look into it as I just put him in the shonky basket but he advertises on dogz and I guess according to his state's rules he is covered.

The question is why - they provide an option for limited or main - still feels to me that one of the ways to determine someone who is breeding for the future of the breed and wanting the most info possible from a pedigree to breed better dogs wouldnt do it and I wouldnt buy a puppy from anyone who did this . I understand that lots of pet puppy buyers dont think papers are important but there needs to be education to explain why papers are so important to record information for breeding decisions and to encourage the buyer to see them as something to be proud of.

This is asking a lot when clearly the breeders themselves dont see why and how the pedigree system is used to make the best decisions and why we need to be able to track every dog and know what turns up.

Edited October 23, 2015 by Steve

[oakway]

I went to look at buying a pup from WA about a year ago and the breeder told me that as the rest of the litter was sold without papers he would not sell a breeding dog from that litter as it wasnt worth his while.

Had something to do with him having to register the whole litter if he registered one. I didnt look into it as I just put him in the shonky basket but he advertises on dogz and I guess according to his state's rules he is covered.

The question is why - they provide an option for limited or main - still feels to me that one of the ways to determine someone who is breeding for the future of the breed and wanting the most info possible from a pedigree to breed better dogs wouldnt do it and I wouldnt buy a puppy from anyone who did this . I understand that lots of pet puppy buyers dont think papers are important but there needs to be education to explain why papers are so important to record information for breeding decisions and to encourage the buyer to see them as something to be proud of.

This is asking a lot when clearly the breeders themselves dont see why and how the pedigree system is used to make the best decisions and why we need to be able to track every dog and know what turns up.

This only goes to show that it is about time that Australian was governed by one set of rules only. We have an ANKC that set rules and then the state bodies go off and create their own and confusion rules.