nyssel Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 (edited) I'm sorry if there is another thread lying around here somewhere but I really would like some help. I have a good friend who did make me a bit upset today as she proudly showed me a video (those humorous videos that have a huge range of topics mocking things) claiming that it has great reasons that 'reliably' explain why purebred dogs are 'bad' with basically a lot of bullcrap in it. Of course, my two dogs are purebred and I have NOTHING against mixed breeds or rescues (why is this such a common thought?) and I have owned several in the past. For some reason, when I tell people I have purebred dogs they assume I am a snobby, anti-rescue, anti-mixed-breed hater. And it is more upsetting when it comes to friends outside of the dog community. She is a huge fan of 'Pomskys', which really irks me and my previous attempts to explain to her about these dogs were ignored. She declared that 'Pomskys' are "wayyy better than purebreds" when I told her breeding purebred dogs were much more ethical than 'pomsky's' I would like to get a few articles or links on puppy mills/farms and WHY pure-breds aren't 'snobby dogs for those rich show people' and the importance of health testing and breeders. I have tried sourcing some but don't have much time this week at all. It is extremely disheartening when people refuse to listen but I'll give it my best shot. Sorry if it was hard to understand just needed to vent. :/ Edited October 13, 2015 by nyssel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 I feel ya! To be honest I think that people like that who feel so strongly that they are right are probably not worth your effort. If people have already made up their minds about pure breeds ( and really we are talking about registered pedigree purebred not just any 2 apparent *insert whatever breeds* that Joe blow decides to breed) then most of the arguments about meeting standards, bettering the breed, proven conformation or performance and even health testing tends to just prove their point in their own minds I think the best non-biased arguments you can use with people who think they know everything already are 1. Predictability ( a Pom x Husky could end up the size and appearance of one breed, the other or anywhere in between and could have he temperament of a lap dog, a determined , independent sled dog or anywhere in between); and 2. The conditions the pups and parents are raised in - stress that if you cannot go and see where the mum, pups and any other dogs live and that they are happy, healthy and cared for then there is every chance you are supporting a puppy mill. It's pretty hard to argue against either of those points no matter what someone's personal views on pure or cross breeds is. But when it comes down to it there are plenty of people who just get their heart set on "that cute puppy I saw one of" and will justify it to themselves and disregard what you say no matter what Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannibalgoldfish Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Pomskeewhhata? Ehem. http://sixteen-feet.com/blog/2013/10/12/so-you-think-youd-like-a-pomsky Also, do note how the cute "Pomsky" puppy photo is actually a baby Lapphund.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 (edited) Probably wasting your breath but one point is that You can have a breed that may be prone to a health problem. As an example the toy poodle & early blindness & the cavalier with heart issues. A registered purebred breeder will genetically test for these & not breed with such dogs. A backyard breeder will not test & may not even know what they are. The complete idiot will quote hybrid vigour & breeding the gene out, which of course they can do by having a live litter & sending them all on their way at 6 or 8 weeks old with nothing wrong with them & claiming it is nothing to do with them if the dog has a problem a year later, if they even know Similar situation for me recently. My friends husband, & they breed pedigree cats, could see nothing amiss in getting a large back yard bred pure breed male to put over his large cross bred female to get puppies. She is not impressed but can't do anything however she bought a cross bred dog too a few years back so go figure that out Edited October 13, 2015 by Christina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest donatella Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 I'm sorry if there is another thread lying around here somewhere but I really would like some help. I have a good friend who did make me a bit upset today as she proudly showed me a video (those humorous videos that have a huge range of topics mocking things) claiming that it has great reasons that 'reliably' explain why purebred dogs are 'bad' with basically a lot of bullcrap in it. Of course, my two dogs are purebred and I have NOTHING against mixed breeds or rescues (why is this such a common thought?) and I have owned several in the past. For some reason, when I tell people I have purebred dogs they assume I am a snobby, anti-rescue, anti-mixed-breed hater. And it is more upsetting when it comes to friends outside of the dog community. She is a huge fan of 'Pomskys', which really irks me and my previous attempts to explain to her about these dogs were ignored. She declared that 'Pomskys' are "wayyy better than purebreds" when I told her breeding purebred dogs were much more ethical than 'pomsky's' I would like to get a few articles or links on puppy mills/farms and WHY pure-breds aren't 'snobby dogs for those rich show people' and the importance of health testing and breeders. I have tried sourcing some but don't have much time this week at all. It is extremely disheartening when people refuse to listen but I'll give it my best shot. Sorry if it was hard to understand just needed to vent. :/ Anyone who thinks crossing a large and toy breed is OK is a clown. I don't even need to say anymore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 (edited) Save your breath. You can lead a horse to water... Just open up any pound page in the country and ask her to identify all the "evil" purebreds. Most folk don't get that its about more than pedigree and looks. It's about improving the reliability that the pup you buy will grow up with the attributes you want in an adult dog. Where are all the crossbred police dogs, guide dogs, working dogs? Those are trained and worked by people who have to reduce the risk of not getting what they want when they need to start training those dogs as pups. As for Pomsky's... Ask your friend how crossing a toy breed of dog with a high energy, high prey drive working dog that keeps its breed rescuers full up is a great idea. You don't just get a cute medium sized dog that has wolf markings... but that's how they are promoted. People are evil. Dogs are just dogs. But people breeding for profit as their primary motivation?? Where are all the ethical Pomsky breeders... ??? Edited October 13, 2015 by Haredown Whippets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leah82 Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Someone posted the attached spreadsheet awhile ago, more so aimed at the types of breeders rather than the breed but after all it's the unethical breeders that create these issues in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgrubber Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 (edited) Putting on my flame suit . . . Narrowing gene pools are a problem with pedigree dogs. Some breeds much more so than others. Tables like the above bother me. Many experienced supposedly good breeders, and many breed clubs, are big actors in over use of popular sires, linebreeding to an extent that results in high COI's, and selection for extreme characteristics -- often with the loss of working ability. There are plenty of breeders who don't show and have no interest in their breed clubs, but are very concerned with health issues. The kennel clubs have brought the dislike of pedigree dogs down upon themselves by pushing purity at the expense of health in breeds with small populations, serious genetic problems, and limited opportunities to breed away from ill health. I am not advocating 'oodles. But I do think the declining registration problem in kennel clubs around the world is due to perceived, and sometimes real, emphasis on appearance (or 'type') at the expense of health and function. I don't argue with such people . . . I partially agree. But also point to examples (both breeds and breeders) where pedigree dogs are very healthy and have excellent temperament . . . or temperament suited for function. The pedigree can be important tool for improving health and temperament Edited October 13, 2015 by sandgrubber Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 ....I have a good friend who did make me a bit upset today as she proudly showed me a video .... ...obviously your good friend knows how to pull the trigger ...if she follows this thread she will feel even more 'rewarded' :D ...when my daughters try to start those arguments where you can find pro and cons depending on the angle you look at it (they also now how to pull the trigger) I borrow this :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mita Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 A study was done in Denmark comparing longevity rates of purebred dogs and mixed-breed dogs. A number of pure breeds beat the mixed breeds .... included poodles, dachshunds, shetland sheepdogs. The point was made that the very large dogs tend to have the shortest life-span & such dogs tend to belong to purebreeds. So, averaging out longevity for purebreeds is confounded by fact they include these very large dogs, while the mixed-breed group don't. But, even given this, some pure breeds still beat the mixed breeds' average. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dame Aussie Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Personally I love all dogs. I have owned purebreds and crosses throughout my life and they've all been as awesome as each other. I do not support random backyard breeding, but that is more due to irresponsible owners, no health testing, dodgy temperaments etc. So I guess for me I'm happy with a cross bred dog if the breeder has followed all the usual "rules" in breeding for health and temperament. I don't believe purebreds or cross breeds are more or less healthy than each other as a group, I really think it depends on the individual dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Whilst not planning on toasting you Sandgrubber, your post is reflective of things I hear quite a bit. Lets take a look. Narrowing gene pools are a problem with pedigree dogs. Some breeds much more so than others. And yet, a relatively rare breed with few health problems is the oldest pedigree dog in the world with its bloodlines closely guarded for millenia. Go figure. Rare breeds are a challenge. Some have been recreated from a handful of dogs. But generalisation about narrowing gene pools is just that. Last UK survey of purebred dog genetics show that COI's are dropping. The kennel clubs have brought the dislike of pedigree dogs down upon themselves by pushing purity at the expense of health in breeds with small populations, serious genetic problems, and limited opportunities to breed away from ill health. And yet kennel clubs have approved outcrossing programs and outside of kennel club breeders WHO is health testing? I am not advocating 'oodles. But I do think the declining registration problem in kennel clubs around the world is due to perceived, and sometimes real, emphasis on appearance (or 'type') at the expense of health and function. The number one factor in declining breed registrations is a no brainer. Breeders are breeding less. There has been a steady demand for pedigreed dogs which they cannot meet and I think that is the factor that allows BYBs to flourish. Again, outside of the pedigree dog world, who is health testing? Very VERY few breeders. The problem with these generalised statements of doom is that they don't bear up to close scruitiny but they get trotted out to suit the agendas of people from whom pedigree dog extinction is a goal. That's the only reason I commented. I know you aren't anti-purebred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leah82 Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 (edited) A lot of purebred breeds have had a period of time where they severely suffered from over breeding and the consequential health issues that come along with that Other breeds have become almost extinct and needed to be crossed out to continue/improve the breed. Hybrid vigour was a thing and did make sense back in the days before genetic testing, however in order for it to work you need to be selective about the breeds you are crossing - no point mixing two breeds that get PRA and assume that your dog isn't going to go blind. Most people don't realise that pedigree breeding has actually advanced and a lot more is done to ensure the health of each individual dog than was available back in the 70's and 80's but there are still downfalls, many show judges are known to have a preferences which impact judging. I for one would like to see less 'show' and more tests (actual measurements, temperament tests etc) to warrant a champion title. Edited October 14, 2015 by Leah82 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 I guess they are a bit paranoid then ;) So many gov't agencies /long standing institutions use purebreed dogs as service/working dogs . S'pose that does make them evil ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salukifan Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Whippets are extremely talented thieves. I suppose that makes them a bit evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottsmum Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 I'd put this topic firmly in the category of "things I don't discuss with idiots" (religion, climate change, politics) and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 In the chart... What is "undocumented paperwork"? (the row about genetic health tests). Fakes? Unofficial? Unverifiable? Sometimes there's no changing people's minds on the day. A bit like discussing vaccination with an anti-vaxer. But you could say why you got what dog you did. I got a dog from the AWL because I didn't know about pet rescue or working dog rescue or dog forums (Duh, why didn't I think of that) when I got the dog. And the AWL had cattle dog (x) puppies. Why would I get a pedigree? because I want something more predictable in temperament and build and health and ability. So I would seek out a breeder who has dogs that are like what I want, does health testing, dogs have proven ability, and I can check temperament and build for myself. Why I would not go near a cross breed breeder, a bit like the chart... you don't know what size the dog will be you don't know what temperament the dog is likely to have you don't know what health problems the dog will have you do know you will get zero after sales support You don't know much about puppy from AWL either - the staff can tell you a bit about the dog's personality sometimes but you're not rewarding a breeder who is dodgy and doing the wrong things by the dogs and their customers. AWL and RSPCA do provide after sales support and they also ask you questions about where the puppy is going and how you're going to look after it. And provide you with what you need to do that eg a short instruction book! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nyssel Posted October 14, 2015 Author Share Posted October 14, 2015 I'll show her the links and articles and that chart :) I doubt she'll read it through and not a lot of it will get through, but hopefully at least she gets the gist of it that 'pomskys' are not so ethical after all and that there is more to a dog than fluffiness and wolf markings. For some reason just the thought of someone breeding pomeranians and huskies (not sure whether anyone really does in Au) or pitksys (pittbull x huskies, of course for the eyes) just angers me more than Labradoodles, say. The thought of a both dogs' strong temperaments and sizes and activity levels in a pup going to someone who just bought it for its looks . . . I'll bring up those arguments as well, but I agree that some things can only be changed by the person changing their own stubborn viewpoints. :/ Do appreciate the effort though and I will keep trying to educate her. /sigh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedFeather Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Pedigreed dogs are not without their problems. But neither are rescues or crossbreeds from BYB. Ultimately, you choose which path you want to take and you'll probably think you're the only one who took the right road until one day you look up and notice you all arrived at the same place...which is loving a dog and getting unconditional love in return. Unless your dog hates people. Then you are unlucky... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 (edited) The more I learn and see the more I think the temperament bred into a dog is vitally important. So people that breed puppies with either no understanding or no acknowledgement of the demonstrated temperament of the parents are doing a disservice to both the puppies and te people who end up owning the puppies. I also see early socialization as as important if not more important than the socialization a puppy receives once it leaves it mum and litter (assuming it leaves at a reasonable age). Of course what happens once a puppy or dog is in its new home, how it is treated, trained and managed are extremely important also and should never be disregarded, but I really think the decisions of the person who breeds the dog initially have a huge impact, and if you taking on a dog are so very worth investigating. So I actually don't think it is just luck if a dog hates people, or other dogs or whatever. However, again there are plenty of people I come across who I wouldn't bother discussing that with as no matter what I said it wouldn't change their views (not you Redfeather, more the people I meet randomly who say things like "it's all in how you raise them with any dog") Edited October 14, 2015 by Simply Grand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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