How To Get Her Focus When Other Dogs Are Around?

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I agree willem

it's not a technique I'd use - I'd rather work the distance threshold too.

But it does nicely show the sort of process - of several repeat attempts at the task and then a break and then train a bit more and then stop...

I went to a seminar last night with a Karen Pryor Acadamy trainer and she talked about "counting out five to ten treats" and when they were all gone - session over.

She didn't play with her dog between sessions like I would have tho.

[corvus]

I really like Denise Fenzi's method, and have been doing similar things for a while with client dogs. There are a few subtle things going on that are really helpful. 1) By putting the control with the helper, the helper can directly influence the dog's behaviour. It's one thing to get a dog to sit and look at you when visitors come, but it doesn't teach the dog how to interact with the visitor. It's easiest when the visitor does that. It will need to be repeated with other people, but getting the basic skills down can be done in a single session. 2) The dog is being rewarded with what they want most - attention from the visitor. This makes whatever they are learning immediately highly relevant. The treat is there to direct attention away from the person's face, because left to its own devices, the dog will look at the person's face and instantly become over-aroused and want to jump up. This is for dogs that are really conflicted. It is surprising how many of them are out there compulsively jumping, but it's not what I would do with a dog that purely wants any kind of attention and doesn't feel conflicted about it. Well, there are some exceptions. 3) The dog is also learning to be calmer around people and keep a hold of their self-control because they are not routinely getting over-aroused. 4) The treats direct the dog's attention towards hands, which is where they can be rewarded with what they want but are not nearly so tempted to jump.

There are situations where finding a comfortable distance and approaching slowly is perfectly effective and makes a lot of sense. And there are situations where it's surprisingly difficult to find that distance, and it all unravels as soon as there is someone at the door because that scenario is so exciting. Getting a dog to do hand touches is a great way to give them an acceptable way to make contact when they are very excited. It is extremely useful and very effective.

Willem, I would highly doubt your dog falls into this category of needy, conflicted greeter at this point. It makes more sense for you to use distance because you can. You are also dealing with other dogs, who cannot manage the situation in the same way. I usually encourage people with dogs that badly want to greet to turn sits into a request to go closer. Once they get to greeting distance, just a really quick one for a few seconds and then call the dog away and reward. You're building habits that help the dog manage their arousal and behave appropriately.

[Simply Grand]

Corvus, in your experience does this kind of training generally lead to the dog being less excited by someone coming to the door? And does it work if the visitor is brand new to the situation and isn't aware of how to deflect the dog's attention from their face?

Genuine interest, Quinn has come a long long way in greeting people in public but we really do very limited training with visitors at home, other than me removing or physically controlling her until she is calm enough to interact with the few friends and family that come into my house.

ETA I don't think Quinn is conflicted or compulsive about her jumping at people, I think it's a conscious choice because it's rewarding for her, but I guess I'm not sure. In general she seems quite competent in choosing which course of action will be most rewarding for her and whether the possible negative consequences are worth the risk!

Also, sorry for highjacking your thread Willem!

Edited October 16, 2015 by Simply Grand

[Willem]

Also, sorry for highjacking your thread Willem!

No worries, I'm interested in these kind of discussions and information too...and of course, there not one single method that is the one and only: dogs are different, owners are different...add different scenarios, locations etc. and dog training becomes a very colorful task :D (still easier than training educating my kids :laugh: )

Edited October 17, 2015 by Willem

[Willem]

... 1) By putting the control with the helper, the helper can directly influence the dog's behaviour. It's one thing to get a dog to sit and look at you when visitors come, but it doesn't teach the dog how to interact with the visitor. It's easiest when the visitor does that. It will need to be repeated with other people, but getting the basic skills down can be done in a single session.

wrt 'single session': I doubt it ...the next visitor without a treat will struggle to keep the dog down...

... 2) The dog is being rewarded with what they want most - attention from the visitor.

IMO the problem is that the dog took the reward on its own terms: the dog sought attention and took it (it was not given as a reward for good behavior from the helper or the owner). You can argue that the dog had to compromise and wasn't allow to jump, but there was still some 'wrestling' from the helper required to keep the dog down. At the end the dog was calmer, but it is at least debatable whether this was due to the 'training methodology' or because the dog just lost the interest in the visitor.

...and, if the attention was the reward: why using the treat - which the dog didn't get - at all? ...the helper could just grab the collar of the dog to keep him down, some patting, hugs...till the dog loses the interest (as his want for attention was satisfied) in the new visitor ...same result, but IMO that's not training the dog, more a 'kind of arranging with the less pleasant scenario'. If the treat is meant to be a distraction: why the helper doesn't give the treat - and even more treats - to the dog to keep him down, thus rewarding him with the treat if he doesn't jump?...would be much, much easier, less wrestling required. The helper intervenes anyway heavily, so why not letting the helper be the trainer? ...e.g. in Roova's link the dog gets rewarded with treats for keeping the 4 paws on the ground.

For me the whole approach is overcomplicated and I can't see a clear trainings pattern. Now I know I sound very critical here, please don't take it personally, I'm just a learner and interested in dog training...

[corvus]

Corvus, in your experience does this kind of training generally lead to the dog being less excited by someone coming to the door? And does it work if the visitor is brand new to the situation and isn't aware of how to deflect the dog's attention from their face?

I guess it depends on the dog and how long they have been greeting that way and with how many people, and how consistent the training is. I always tell people to keep the dog away from visitors until they can show they are calm enough to think. I suggest sits or a down by the door or gate. If they can hold that while you are opening the door, they are good to come out when released. In many cases, that alone can solve the problem, but for dogs that are intense, needy greeters, they need some extra management as well, and this is where this kind of thing can be quite useful. Again, I'd advise just don't risk it with a non-savvy visitor. Bring the dog out later when they are calmer if you must, preferably on a leash, and with some treats in your hand so you can call them back and reward if they need a break. If the dog has a long history of jumping on everyone, I would not expect new training to hold with people new to the situation. If they haven't been doing it for long, though, you can get this under control in a session, and if it's a really switched on dog, it will usually be responsive to reminders. I had a dog stay with me briefly that would greet with muzzle punches and bruising nips. It was very conflicted, over-aroused behaviour. The dog learnt a hand touch and the worst of the behaviour was under control in a few days. It transferred to other people very well, even newbies. Just tell them to hold their hand out to the side if the dog comes towards them. That is a simple signal and comes pretty naturally. It may have worked particularly well for that dog because it was quite a new way for him to achieve his goals and it took the conflict away completely. I expect it was the first time in his life he'd been able to greet people without conflict.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

IMO the problem is that the dog took the reward on its own terms: the dog sought attention and took it (it was not given as a reward for good behavior from the helper or the owner).

Not exactly. The visitor-dog-trainer had food in her hand - that the dog liked better than jumping up, so kept his face down and focussed on the visitor-trainer's hands. The dog only got the yummy food from his owner. Ie the person at the other end of the lead - when he checked back in with her.

This method was specified for dogs who are completely overwhelmed by needing to greet people. So it was a type of "its yer choice game" where the dog gets the treat by backing off from the treat in the visitor-trainer's hand. The dog makes the choice of its own accord and hence gets the strongest kind of impulse control ie from within.

But it was pointed out in the article that you'd need to repeat the training with at least 6 other visitor-trainers. And maybe in 6 more different places. I always think the different number of environments needs to be up around 18 or so - for the dog to generalise the training to all places.

So the owner would need to explain the game to each trainer and then have them be the visitor with a hand full of yummy food - that they hold in the dog's face but never hand over.

The ideal source of trainers (in my opinion) would be agility club instructors or masters level handlers - who are friendly with people and dogs and have time. And again - keep the sessions short. I'd set a timer for 2 minutes and five treats (from the owner) and then put the dog away (end the training, have a play, put the dog in a crate or somewhere they can't keep interacting with the visitor - trainer).

The distance threshold method - is also a form of "its yer choice" Ie dog can approach as long as it chooses to remain calm.

Which would probably work better with my dog who is quite good at chaining unacceptable behaviour (over enthusiastic greeting) with good behaviour (checking in with the owner) to get the treat. Ie she would see "harassing the visitor" as a required behaviour to get the treat. She's less likely to do this if there is no treat - just pats and praise.

[corvus]

IMO the problem is that the dog took the reward on its own terms: the dog sought attention and took it (it was not given as a reward for good behavior from the helper or the owner). You can argue that the dog had to compromise and wasn't allow to jump, but there was still some 'wrestling' from the helper required to keep the dog down. At the end the dog was calmer, but it is at least debatable whether this was due to the 'training methodology' or because the dog just lost the interest in the visitor.

I believe the criterion is just to have four feet on the ground. The dog was doing that, and got rewarded. I don't think there was much wrestling, really, just strategic hand work. You could easily argue that the reduction in jumping alone could stop the arousal heightening and therefore produce calmness and a foot on a leash would achieve the same thing. To which I would answer, a Thundershirt should have the same effect, then. Let's try it. :)

...and, if the attention was the reward: why using the treat - which the dog didn't get - at all? ...the helper could just grab the collar of the dog to keep him down, some patting, hugs...till the dog loses the interest (as his want for attention was satisfied) in the new visitor ...same result, but IMO that's not training the dog, more a 'kind of arranging with the less pleasant scenario'. If the treat is meant to be a distraction: why the helper doesn't give the treat - and even more treats - to the dog to keep him down, thus rewarding him with the treat if he doesn't jump?...would be much, much easier, less wrestling required. The helper intervenes anyway heavily, so why not letting the helper be the trainer? ...e.g. in Roova's link the dog gets rewarded with treats for keeping the 4 paws on the ground.

Because attention was the reward, not food. Think of the food as an attractor if you like, or an aid to get the correct behaviour. You could give the dog the food, and I have in the past and probably will in the future, but it tends to cloud the issue a bit. It's harder to pick why the dog is behaving this way in the first place if you are rewarding them with something that is reinforcing regardless of your assumptions. And you introduce an added impetus for the dog to approach that you may not want. With dogs that jump, I want to know what they are trying to achieve. Do they want more space or less? Are they impulsive, or are they feeling the intensity of the situation? If you keep food rewards out of the picture as much as possible, it is easier to do an analysis of the function of the behaviour and streamline your training. You can make predictions, e.g. If this dog is trying to make contact, then I should be able to reward 4-feet on the floor with contact. If the dog wants more space, I should be able to reward a sit with more space. Equally, using the treat to capture the dog's attention instead of holding the dog or touching keeps the social intensity of the situation down. There are plenty of dogs that start bopping your face the moment you get a bit touchy feely with them. It's not even that they necessarily want more space. I interpret it as kind of like "Wow, I like you, but this is really intense!" I've seen dogs pretty much lose their composure whenever someone tries to interact with them physically. They love people, but it's so intense for them, they just can't keep themselves together.

It's not like it's the only way or even necessarily the best way. Plenty of dogs do fine with food rewards for all feet on the ground. Plenty do fine with simply attention for all feet on the ground. Some dogs are not so easy, though, and this can be a complex issue for them. I am glad to see alternative treatments getting out there. I have met a surprising number of dogs that are handling greetings poorly because their goals are misunderstood. Then again, it can be really hard to figure out their goals sometimes. I gather they are not always clear themselves what they are trying to achieve.

[silentchild]

I agree with Denise's method and I think Corvus has explained it well. This article is meant for extremely hyper needy greeters - many normal excited greeters won't fall into the category. One thing I like about all Denise's methods is that they are all choice based learning. Yes, the dog interacts with the stranger on it's own terms. Yes, the dog gets rewarded when it chooses to turn back to the handler. The dog is rewarded for making good choices! I use choice based training a lot - I never correct my dog or stop her from disengaging and running off to sniff for example, but reward when my dog chooses to come back to me, and stay with me. Over time the dog learns that choosing to stay with the handler pays off and is inherently more rewarding and also becomes a default behaviour, and a safe space. Choice is the key word here... just like IYC. I find that the bond that develops from this type of training is the strongest of all. And yes I have also done the distance method (which is perfectly fine and suited to most dogs).

But again, different strokes for different folks. If your method works well for you, stick to it. But other methods also work well for other people and I don't think they should be discredited.

[Willem]

@ MRB and corvus: thanks for the 'more food for thought' :) ...who knows, perhaps I find myself one day in a situation where I have to try something different and then it is good to know that there are alternatives out there that worked for others.

@ silentchild wrt "...I never correct my dog or stop her from disengaging and running off...." : NEVER???...also considering that a learning curve can be assumed (over time), not stopping a dog from running off could mean getting hit by a car, causing accidents, getting bitten by snakes, intimidating others etc. etc....?... IMO there are definitely a lot of situations where a dog owner has the responsibility to stop the dog from running off!

[silentchild]

@ silentchild wrt "...I never correct my dog or stop her from disengaging and running off...." : NEVER???...also considering that a learning curve can be assumed (over time), not stopping a dog from running off could mean getting hit by a car, causing accidents, getting bitten by snakes, intimidating others etc. etc....?... IMO there are definitely a lot of situations where a dog owner has the responsibility to stop the dog from running off!

I mean during training sessions, of course, ie. in obedience/freestyle/agility, etc. either on or off leash. It is unorthodox but it works remarkably well for her.

In those real life situations that you describe (which is unrelated to what we were discussing here which I thought was about training sessions specifically), I have a different training for recall which works very well for us, I can recall her off live prey, again no corrections or punishment. Of course I keep her on lead next to cars, snakes etc..... common sense.

Edited October 17, 2015 by silentchild

[Willem]

...ok, sorry, the "never" confused me...

[silentchild]

No worries, 'never' as in 'never during obedience training'... I forget how specific I have to be with wordings on this forum....

[Simply Grand]

I don't have the issue with Quinn during specific training sessions. Funnily enough as soon as she sees that I'm starting more structured training with her she is totally focused on me and not interested in whatever else is going on, even in distracting environments. That's not something I consciously trained, she just really likes training!

It's during the more relaxed 'real life' times when we're just walking or at the park that people become super interesting so it's been a bit tricky to find the balance between switched on enough to control her urge to jump at people but still relaxed enough to be interested on approaching people. I could keep her in focused on me mode and not have her approach people, which would avoid the problem, but I don't want to rely on that as there are bound to be times when I slip up and she does end up interacting with people, so I like knowing that she can greet people without scaring them or knocking them over!!

[corvus]

@ silentchild wrt "...I never correct my dog or stop her from disengaging and running off...." : NEVER???...also considering that a learning curve can be assumed (over time), not stopping a dog from running off could mean getting hit by a car, causing accidents, getting bitten by snakes, intimidating others etc. etc....?... IMO there are definitely a lot of situations where a dog owner has the responsibility to stop the dog from running off!

I have never corrected either of my dogs for running off or disengaging. What would be the point? If they disengage, there are a zillion reasons for that and I actually can't think of any off the top of my head where I would consider it the dog deliberately acting up. If they run off, by the time I get to them, it's too late to do anything but leash and move on. So no, I have never done it. I rely on management and giving them really good reasons to hang around. They are very good off leash. Not perfect, but I generally have more trouble convincing them to stop petitioning me for more training than anything. Instead, I used releases and a points system. The game is to release the dog before they run off or disengage. If I achieve that, I get 1 point. If the dog runs off before I dismiss them, I lose 10 points. It took a while, but this is how I got my dogs to work in any environment pretty much the moment I ask them if they want to. It started out dismissing them so they wouldn't dismiss themselves, but became dismissing them so they would stop hanging around begging for more training.

[silentchild]

@ silentchild wrt "...I never correct my dog or stop her from disengaging and running off...." : NEVER???...also considering that a learning curve can be assumed (over time), not stopping a dog from running off could mean getting hit by a car, causing accidents, getting bitten by snakes, intimidating others etc. etc....?... IMO there are definitely a lot of situations where a dog owner has the responsibility to stop the dog from running off!

I have never corrected either of my dogs for running off or disengaging. What would be the point? If they disengage, there are a zillion reasons for that and I actually can't think of any off the top of my head where I would consider it the dog deliberately acting up. If they run off, by the time I get to them, it's too late to do anything but leash and move on. So no, I have never done it. I rely on management and giving them really good reasons to hang around. They are very good off leash. Not perfect, but I generally have more trouble convincing them to stop petitioning me for more training than anything. Instead, I used releases and a points system. The game is to release the dog before they run off or disengage. If I achieve that, I get 1 point. If the dog runs off before I dismiss them, I lose 10 points. It took a while, but this is how I got my dogs to work in any environment pretty much the moment I ask them if they want to. It started out dismissing them so they wouldn't dismiss themselves, but became dismissing them so they would stop hanging around begging for more training.

This is very similiar to how I do it too! :) I must say I like your points system concept. Like you I also find the more I release the more they want to work too! And if they disengage before I release, they might need a break, that's perfectly fine by me! I am not going to begrudge a dog who shows me he needs a break - for whatever reason - training is hard work! I release them then and find they usually want to come back for more work almost straightaway. So now I have a release word for 'Ok you can go but you can also choose to come back and work which is great!!!' and another release word for 'Ok no seriously we are done, you are very cute but work is finished now really!' :laugh:

[Willem]

I don't have the issue with Quinn during specific training sessions. Funnily enough as soon as she sees that I'm starting more structured training with her she is totally focused on me and not interested in whatever else is going on, even in distracting environments. That's not something I consciously trained, she just really likes training!

It's during the more relaxed 'real life' times when we're just walking or at the park that people become super interesting so it's been a bit tricky to find the balance between switched on enough to control her urge to jump at people but still relaxed enough to be interested on approaching people. I could keep her in focused on me mode and not have her approach people, which would avoid the problem, but I don't want to rely on that as there are bound to be times when I slip up and she does end up interacting with people, so I like knowing that she can greet people without scaring them or knocking them over!!

...I noticed this too, not only with my dog but also with the other dogs in her obedience and agility classes...the trigger zone becomes really very small for them during training; conversely, in the morning the first steps out of the house and everything, especially a dog - also if it's at the end of the street - becomes a huge distraction.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I think for me and my dog - I'm much less permissive in a training environment - because I have more to lose (esteem, respect). So I'm much likely to go get my dog if she nicks off and end the session.

In my back yard - I'm much more likely to let her go sniff when she wants. Tho if I am in the middle of a training session with her - I do realise I've trained at least one attempt too many - best to quit when the dog (and yourself) still want more. Hard as that is for a hedonist (both of us).

She thinks she owns the yard, street out the front of my house etc. And will try to drive off other dogs and strangers. She's a bit apologetic? or grovelly when she realises that the dog she was just yelling at is actually a dog she's friends with. That happens.

I don't want to find out how far she'd chase a cat given the opportunity.

[Willem]

some updates (time for some bragging...):

it has been nearly 4 weeks since I started this thread; despite her issues 'to focus when other dogs are around', during this time in the obedience training she graduated from beginners to class 1 and today she even made it to class 2 (she was sitting like a rock between 2 other dogs with her eyes only on me while I was walking around :) )....plus graduation of the beginner agility class will be next Wednesday. So I take this as a strong evidence that her focus must have improved significantly in a relative short time :D .

While I trained her also in the backyard and during walks, I can recognize now that the 'private training' can't be a substitute for training together with other dogs. Whether it is obedience, agility or something else, or the time spend on the dog trainings ground before and after the training while other dogs are around: this interaction with, respectively distraction by other dogs adds actually crucial and very important value to the training. Of course, sometimes it might be embarrassing when she runs off, starting her crazy 5 minutes etc., but the positive overall impact on her development is significant. This positive change is not only recognizable in her, but also noticeable in the other dogs in her classes, especially in the agility class.

But not only she learned a lot. I noticed that I'm actually quite exhausted after every training, keeping my focus on her, on the instructor and the other dogs is quite challenging, so it is a lot of learning for me too. There are so many tips and tricks to pick up (beside 'other things' to pick up :laugh: ), body language, clear signs how to communicate with her etc. etc....all I would have badly missed if I would have trained her only in the backyard...I can also recognize that the obedience training is beneficial for the agility class (quite obvious I guess) and vise versa (not so obvious)...if there are any dog owners reading this, who are still hesitating whether they should do obedience training and / or agility (or flyball....): go for it! you do yourself and your dog a big, big favor!!!

[sheena]