Willem Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 ...our BC (female) is now nearly 10 month old, and while she learns (we take her to the obedience trainings and agility class) pretty easily it is very hart (impossible?) to get her focus when other dogs are around... then she just wants to play with the other dog(s). I know BCs mature very slowly (or never?), but I wonder whether this behavior will change (and if when?) while she gets older? When walking her she behaves nearly perfect...till she sees another dog. I make her drop till the other owner / dog arrives or passes to keep some limit control (I have to step on the leash as she still tries to move towards the other dog). If the other dog is interested (and if the owner accepts it) I let her have a 'sniff' and let her play, and after a few minutes of playing most of the time she follows my '...let's go...' without too much resistance. During the obedience and agility training she is full of adrenalin and goes nuts (not aggressive, just playful) after 1/2 hour (the first 1/2 hour is pretty o.k. if I let her run with the other dogs before the training)... ...so will she grow out of this?...any tips and advice?...we use treats as a reward for correct behavior, but she could go 2 days without food and would ignore the treat when she sees another dog.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaCharlie Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 ...our BC (female) is now nearly 10 month old, and while she learns (we take her to the obedience trainings and agility class) pretty easily it is very hart (impossible?) to get her focus when other dogs are around... then she just wants to play with the other dog(s). I know BCs mature very slowly (or never?), but I wonder whether this behavior will change (and if when?) while she gets older? When walking her she behaves nearly perfect...till she sees another dog. I make her drop till the other owner / dog arrives or passes to keep some limit control (I have to step on the leash as she still tries to move towards the other dog). If the other dog is interested (and if the owner accepts it) I let her have a 'sniff' and let her play, and after a few minutes of playing most of the time she follows my '...let's go...' without too much resistance. During the obedience and agility training she is full of adrenalin and goes nuts (not aggressive, just playful) after 1/2 hour (the first 1/2 hour is pretty o.k. if I let her run with the other dogs before the training)... ...so will she grow out of this?...any tips and advice?...we use treats as a reward for correct behavior, but she could go 2 days without food and would ignore the treat when she sees another dog.... If it were me, I wouldn't be allowing her to play with the others before training. She is there to work, not to socialise and at this point you are having issues with her being able to tell the difference between when she is allowed to play with them and when she is not. An hour is a very long time for her to be concentrating. Some BCs can do it and some can not. We have a 12 month old here who gets to come out for about 5mins at the start and 5mins at the end. Any more than that and it is too taxing on her brain and she cannot concentrate any longer. That's when the other behaviours will creep in (wanting to play with the others etc). Is it possible to only train her for the first half and then just watch and learn yourself for the second half? If she needs a play before training to get the "bugs" out, I would suggest taking her for a walk or having a big play with her before you arrive at the grounds. I also wouldn't be allowing her to interact with the other dogs on a walk at this point in time either. While it is not formal training, you are wanting a dog that will walk with you and not get overexcited every time she sees another dog. Allowing her to then play with that dog is only going to reinforce in her mind that dogs she sees on a walk are fun and she might get to meet them. By all means meet up with others and let her play with other friendly dogs if that is something you want her to do. But have it as a "play only" session. No expectation of leash-walking, no training, nothing but playing. Personally, I prefer my dogs to have no value for other dogs. I want to be the thing they want to play and interact with. They need to learn that other dogs exist in their world but I want them to just ignore that existance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 ...our BC (female) is now nearly 10 month old, and while she learns (we take her to the obedience trainings and agility class) pretty easily it is very hart (impossible?) to get her focus when other dogs are around... then she just wants to play with the other dog(s). I know BCs mature very slowly (or never?), but I wonder whether this behavior will change (and if when?) while she gets older? When walking her she behaves nearly perfect...till she sees another dog. I make her drop till the other owner / dog arrives or passes to keep some limit control (I have to step on the leash as she still tries to move towards the other dog). If the other dog is interested (and if the owner accepts it) I let her have a 'sniff' and let her play, and after a few minutes of playing most of the time she follows my '...let's go...' without too much resistance. During the obedience and agility training she is full of adrenalin and goes nuts (not aggressive, just playful) after 1/2 hour (the first 1/2 hour is pretty o.k. if I let her run with the other dogs before the training)... ...so will she grow out of this?...any tips and advice?...we use treats as a reward for correct behavior, but she could go 2 days without food and would ignore the treat when she sees another dog.... I know exactly where you are coming from & playing LAT (Look At That Game) with her is your best friend. It is a counter conditioning game & if you PM me with your email address, I can send you some notes I made on LAT for my agility class's. Do you do any clicker training with her ?? I ask this, because LAT & the clicker go hand in hand. My older girl, just loves other dogs & she used to behave like a tassie devil at trials & training, before I got her into LAT. Also, I don't allow her to run with other dogs at all, unless they are ones she is very familiar with. My boy has never been a problem, but I will pull out the clicker & play LAT with him for a minute or so, if he is in a stressful or fearful situation. We have a three second rule or meet & greets :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 ...our BC (female) is now nearly 10 month old, and while she learns (we take her to the obedience trainings and agility class) pretty easily it is very hart (impossible?) to get her focus when other dogs are around... then she just wants to play with the other dog(s). I know BCs mature very slowly (or never?), but I wonder whether this behavior will change (and if when?) while she gets older? When walking her she behaves nearly perfect...till she sees another dog. I make her drop till the other owner / dog arrives or passes to keep some limit control (I have to step on the leash as she still tries to move towards the other dog). If the other dog is interested (and if the owner accepts it) I let her have a 'sniff' and let her play, and after a few minutes of playing most of the time she follows my '...let's go...' without too much resistance. During the obedience and agility training she is full of adrenalin and goes nuts (not aggressive, just playful) after 1/2 hour (the first 1/2 hour is pretty o.k. if I let her run with the other dogs before the training)... ...so will she grow out of this?...any tips and advice?...we use treats as a reward for correct behavior, but she could go 2 days without food and would ignore the treat when she sees another dog.... If it were me, I wouldn't be allowing her to play with the others before training. She is there to work, not to socialise and at this point you are having issues with her being able to tell the difference between when she is allowed to play with them and when she is not. An hour is a very long time for her to be concentrating. Some BCs can do it and some can not. We have a 12 month old here who gets to come out for about 5mins at the start and 5mins at the end. Any more than that and it is too taxing on her brain and she cannot concentrate any longer. That's when the other behaviours will creep in (wanting to play with the others etc). Is it possible to only train her for the first half and then just watch and learn yourself for the second half? If she needs a play before training to get the "bugs" out, I would suggest taking her for a walk or having a big play with her before you arrive at the grounds. I also wouldn't be allowing her to interact with the other dogs on a walk at this point in time either. While it is not formal training, you are wanting a dog that will walk with you and not get overexcited every time she sees another dog. Allowing her to then play with that dog is only going to reinforce in her mind that dogs she sees on a walk are fun and she might get to meet them. By all means meet up with others and let her play with other friendly dogs if that is something you want her to do. But have it as a "play only" session. No expectation of leash-walking, no training, nothing but playing. Personally, I prefer my dogs to have no value for other dogs. I want to be the thing they want to play and interact with. They need to learn that other dogs exist in their world but I want them to just ignore that existance. A big +1 for this. The way I think of it is that you want to be showing her that you are more exciting and rewarding than other dogs. I doubt that you would be able to maintain that level of concentration and energy and focus for the hour class, so I would be doing bits at a time. Most instructors who know what they're doing are fine with you doing a bit of high intensity high focus work, then having a brain break (for both of you :) ) .. then joining back in again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted September 29, 2015 Author Share Posted September 29, 2015 Thanks all for the advises ... ...Personally, I prefer my dogs to have no value for other dogs. I want to be the thing they want to play and interact with. They need to learn that other dogs exist in their world but I want them to just ignore that existance. ...that's a little bit harsh :) ? ... I love to watch her running with the big - and smaller - guys, I guess it's good sport for her, burns a lot of calories and trains also her stamina and natural behavior; based on the last trainings sessions it seems she is also focusing better and is not so interested in other dogs when she had a good run first. Good idea so to be more clear when doing the training walks ... I know exactly where you are coming from & playing LAT (Look At That Game) with her is your best friend. ...I watched a few YouTube clips - very impressive and still pretty simple! ... have to do more reading, but clicker is already ordered :D ... she will love this game... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Willem....I have just added the Look At That Game notes to my web page....I have been meaning to do it for ages :laugh: Anyway here is the link....Look At That Game On that same site you will also find notes on Clicker Training :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted September 29, 2015 Author Share Posted September 29, 2015 Sheena, that's a very, very nice website with fantastic information...it will take me a while to read it all - I have to get back to work now. I love the idea with the poly pipe for the trainings equipment ! ...light weight and easy to do ...and what a nice spot you have, a real heaven for dogs ...and owners... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Personally, I prefer my dogs to have no value for other dogs. I want to be the thing they want to play and interact with. They need to learn that other dogs exist in their world but I want them to just ignore that existance. The best thing i have read & i so wish puppy schools would teach this at classes inside of the free for all entitlement that every dog should be played with which then seems to pass onto the owners that if they see a dog there dog should interact . I follow the same theory with my dogs ,they have wonderful manners around other dogs at dog shows BUT there world does not revolve around reacting to dogs just because . My guys weigh up to 40 kg ,the last thing i want is them going off like pork chops at any dog that walks past but its just as frustrating seeing the dog owner with such dogs heading your way because the dog "wants to say hello" I use to compete in agility & obedience but honestly got feed up playing dodge the Collies that ran riot,barked non stop & almost intimidated other dogs & owners that thought it was funny or simply acceptable. There is nothing more pleasurable than walking your dog amongst many dogs & the dog minding its own business Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheena Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 Sheena, that's a very, very nice website with fantastic information...it will take me a while to read it all - I have to get back to work now. I love the idea with the poly pipe for the trainings equipment ! ...light weight and easy to do ...and what a nice spot you have, a real heaven for dogs ...and owners... Thahkyou...that is very kind...we enjoy it :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted September 29, 2015 Author Share Posted September 29, 2015 I don't think that 'a dog with good manners around other dogs' and 'a dog that likes to play with other dogs' it has to be a contradiction ...we once bumped into a dog owner, his dog was walking (off leash) approx. 5 m in front of him. When the dog saw our dog, he looked back to his owner, the owner made him sit. You could see in the eyes of the other dog that he would have loved to play, but as I was concerned to let our dog off leash (approx. 6 month old at the time) we only had a brief chat and kept on walking.... obviously this (the other dog, not our dog) was a well trained dog... ...and the opposite experience: once while I was fishing (before we got our dog) I watched a guy with a young Great Dane! which he let run off leash at the beach. A lady with a smaller dog (on leash) came along and the Great Dane started to play with the other dog ... the owner of the Great Dane had no control at all!!!, and while his dog wasn't aggressive, obviously the poor woman and her dog got very intimidated, they got tangled ... shear luck that she didn't injured herself... IMO it is pretty simple: if there is a chance that your dog will intimidate others (due to lack of training or control or other circumstances or whatever) don't let him off leash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 (edited) Willem, you can certainly let your dog play with other dogs if she wants to and you want to let her, but in order for you to have her respond to you when you need her to, even around other dogs, you might just need to remove the privilege for a little while. At the moment playing with other dogs seems to be the most exciting, rewarding thing to her. And the more she gets to practice that the longer it continues to be super rewarding for her. You want to show her that actually you are more fun and exciting than anything else, including other dogs so that whenever she has a choice you are her favourite option! The LAT info you've got is great, it's a fun and effective game that most dogs respond really well to :) I was also thinking that when you are walking her and see other dogs maybe rather than just having her sit or drop and stay still you can play a little game with her or ask her to do a bit of trick training and reward her highly with treats or praise or whatever she likes best so she starts to associate seeing other dogs with fun times with YOU. I wouldn't let her interact with them at this stage either, otherwise that still becomes the ultimate reward for her. BCs learn quickly and generally love figuring out what their owner wants them to do so I don't think it will take long to build that value in you over other dogs, and the better she gets at that the more you can then give her access to other dogs. Edited September 29, 2015 by Simply Grand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheridan Posted September 29, 2015 Share Posted September 29, 2015 My Bunny won't concentrate without having a runaround first. As an active kerry with a brain that either thinks too much or goes into a tizz, having her a little tired aids in calming her down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted October 2, 2015 Author Share Posted October 2, 2015 ...started clicker training, and no playing with other dogs or sniffing when walking her; still allowing here a sniff here and then during the agility training as there are too many dogs around ...(she was pretty good last Wednesday - they introduced the tunnel during this session and it took her just 1 minute to figure out what she has to do.) ...let's see how we go... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 Hi Willem it does feel mean stopping your dog from playing when it wants to but you need to be the one in charge - not your dog. Your dog doesn't always know what's in her best interests. Eg would you think it mean to stop her from playing with a dog that is the other side of a busy road? No. Last night at club, I and quite a few other trainers felt mean - stopping my dog from cadging treats off them. She so wanted that other dog's treats... and those trainers so wanted to give them to her. She was offering lots of cool tricks too. But I said - how would you feel if my dog nicked out of the agility ring to cadge treats from you - we'd both be mortified. So you have to set limits. It's all about permission and distraction training. Your dog can go play - with your permission. Clearly at dog training in class - no permission. And given your dog is struggling with that idea, you need to practice short play sessions with your permission and she needs to be able to be called away from play quite willingly (start on lead so you have some control). That is so handy - if your dog will come away from playing with another dog, you can save her life, the other dog's life, prevent fights breaking out and generally keep your dog safe. And you can also send her to "go play" much more often. My dog - being the back chain queen - learned that I would allow her to go play (with permission) if she could hold a good sit, so she'd play bow the other dog, then sit and look at me, and if I let her off, she'd ignore the dog she said she wanted to play with (should see how disappointed it looks) and she'd go hoovering in the nearby playground (always lots of food there). Cos she likes food way more than playing with other dogs. So I don't fall for that any more. If you can break your training class up with little play sessions with you and the dog (does she play tug, or short fetch games?) that will help her concentrate when learning new things. Also when you're not engaging with your dog and training, eg you're listening to the instructor - make sure that your dog has a job to do (eg down-stay), and keep in contact with her (pats). You don't want her thinking it's ok to ignore you (or you ignore her) during "work". Make it really clear that work is stopped (eg sit-stay) and she's a good dog, the game didn't stop because something is wrong. Otherwise you can end up with a dog that goes sniffing or just nicks off because training suddenly stopped and they get stressed about it. That can also be when they decide to go visit everyone and every other dog at school. Not fun. And it used to be me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpha bet Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 (edited) I just don't see the point in trying to keep a dog from enjoying the activity of playing with other dogs.... 10 month old - just a baby in many ways... at this age we should be encouraging out dogs to get out and have fun... with us and with other dogs.... Remember a 10 month old dog is not dissimilar to a child of perhaps 4-6 year old - would you seriously expect a 5 year old to sit for an hour and pay attention to a book instead of going out and playing on the swings and slides....? Humans have such a tendency to want to micro manage their dogs (and often their kids) - work with the dog to enjoy the time out playing and incorporate games that your dog can run back to you and play a game for a few minutes then they are free to move back to social play. We run classes for dogs of all ages... of which the majority of the class is held OFF LEAD....Never have any issue with getting dogs (AND PUPPIES) to learn how to focus on work at hand... as the humans getting better at their skills the dogs spend more time focusing. Edited October 2, 2015 by alpha bet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted October 2, 2015 Author Share Posted October 2, 2015 ...... Cos she likes food way more than playing with other dogs..... ...lucky you :D ...conversely other dogs have the highest priority for our BC at the moment, I just came back from another walk that proofed it again; so I agree with you 100% (I read an learn :D ), might be a little bit tough the next 2 - 3 weeks, but she will learn... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted October 2, 2015 Author Share Posted October 2, 2015 I just don't see the point in trying to keep a dog from enjoying the activity of playing with other dogs.... 10 month old - just a baby in many ways... at this age we should be encouraging out dogs to get out and have fun... with us and with other dogs.... Remember a 10 month old dog is not dissimilar to a child of perhaps 4-6 year old - would you seriously expect a 5 year old to sit for an hour and pay attention to a book instead of going out and playing on the swings and slides....? Humans have such a tendency to want to micro manage their dogs (and often their kids) - work with the dog to enjoy the time out playing and incorporate games that your dog can run back to you and play a game for a few minutes then they are free to move back to social play. We run classes for dogs of all ages... of which the majority of the class is held OFF LEAD....Never have any issue with getting dogs (AND PUPPIES) to learn how to focus on work at hand... as the humans getting better at their skills the dogs spend more time focusing. the problem with our dog is that there is nothing else in her world when she sees another dog, she could be without food for 2 days and she wouldn't take a treat for a sniff & play - she just goes nuts. When she was younger she showed the same behavior when she saw other people - that's faded now and she won't run off anymore when someone passes. I love to watch her running and playing with other dogs, and she will get her time to do so, but it will be on my terms. And it is not only me who walks the dog, it is also my wife and 2 younger daughters: while I'm able to control her while she is on leash when bumping into another dog, my wife or my daughters would struggle, so there is a good reason for teaching a little bit more discipline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roova Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 I've learnt a lot from this thread, thank you for your question Willem. I've enjoyed reading all the suggestions but especially Mrs RB's. Everything you've said has struck such a cord with me, thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted October 2, 2015 Share Posted October 2, 2015 ...lucky you :D ...conversely other dogs have the highest priority for our BC at the moment, Lucky me - I get to practice distraction training (aka distraction proofing)... It doesn't really matter what the distraction is or why your dog is distracted (loves the distraction or hates it)... distraction proofing works much the same... you find out what the threshold distance is - how close can you be to the distraction before your dog gets distracted? (for your dog: another dog; for my dog: a food source or on the dark side - a rude poodle cross) once you find that distance, back up a bit so your dog can still pay attention to you and play lots of training drills and games. If your dog can't pay attention to you - you're still too close. Another test of "too close" is will she take a treat - something really yummy (pay attention to what these might be too)? A dog that is too excited, especially a herding dog, won't take treats or play with you so you need to find a way to get her attention back. Usually that means going a bit further away or around a corner and out of sight. Practice on the edge of the threshold distance, a little bit closer, a little bit further away... see if you can get a bit closer - on average. It won't happen over night or with one session, but you have a BC, one of the smartest most willing to please dogs there is. And you can use "go play" as a reward for paying attention to you when there is a distracting dog nearby. Do pay attention to what dogs she wants to play with and only pick the friendly willing ones. Border Collies remember bad experiences forever and there's a lot of "fear aggressive" ones out there because they tried to play with the wrong dog. Good luck, have fun and keep us posted :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willem Posted October 6, 2015 Author Share Posted October 6, 2015 surprise, surprise, 2 hours ago our 10 month old, submissive, playful 'little' puppy showed a total different behavior: this morning we found 2 dogs from the neighborhood in our garden, their owner might have just let them out (I won't comment on this - I blame myself that I didn't check the door and gate yesterday to make sure they were properly closed and that the storm we had this night couldn't open them, so maybe exactly the same happend to the other dog owner). I went to the garden to find out what happend and to get them out of our garden, our BC - she was in the house - came with me. When she saw the other dogs, her hair stood up and she started chasing the other dogs, not playful, but very aggressively - wow, was this our little puppy?... I had to get her back into the house to get control of the situation. Now I ask myself was this just territorial or was it her herding instinct as the other dogs threatened 'her' guinea pigs? ...we have 2 compounds for the guinea pigs (1 for the male, 1 for the females) in our garden and she takes 'herding' them very serious: she spends a lot of time just watching them, circles around the compounds, and every time we feed them she becomes excited and has to watch closely what we doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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