Impact Of No Pull Harnesses On Dogs

[Steph M]

We do work in conjunction with a trainer, but at the moment I use it as a backup as well as a training tool.

I can't afford to be toppled at 39 weeks pregnant, but I still need to walk my beasts.

Mostly Gus doesn't bother pulling but if there's a really good tree or a possum poo or a person looks at him and coos there's a risk I'll go over if he yanks me unsuspectingly on his collar, my centre of balance is whack at the moment. Haha.

I have to say using it as a tool has done us immense good, it gives us a chance to catch and reward good behaviours and he doesn't really pull in it now, it takes the fun out of it, as soon as he goes on his harness he clicks into a different mode, whereas if I leash his collar he thinks its whatever goes mode due to some less than stellar training as a pup, I'll admit.

The long term goal is of course to move into a flat collar but I feel no guilt at all using a harness for half an hour a day so we can still walk together.

I don't rely entirely on it and see it as an endgame, it means I can reward him for being good and I don't have to panic if he sees something exciting because he's finally learning to check in for a treat rather than act like a knob, no mean feat if you'd walked him 6 months ago.

[denali]

Not directed at anyone, just a question.

In these training situations, would a halti not be a good substitute?

Eta: like a head halter

Edited September 28, 2015 by denali

[Simply Grand]

Denali, we used head collars a lot when retraining shelter dogs who were already big, strong and untrained and either never got walked or were used to pulling their previous owners around by the time they got to us. They are very effective if used properly but also very easy for a dog to learn to pull through and still be out of control on if not used properly.

A dog on a halti/head collar really needs to be walking next to you for it to be effective and you use it purely to be able to physically hold on to them to prevent them being able to self reward by pulling to wherever they want to go. As soon as people start letting the dog go and then trying to yank them back by the head they are not using the halti effectively and are basically making useless and even harmful.

It can also take some conditioning to get the dog used to the halti before you even start walking on it so harnesses are generally quicker to introduce and make it easier for people to hang on to the dog from the get go, with a bit more leeway for error if you don't get the technique right from the beginning.

[Ashling]

I would also be interested if it damages them when they wear the no-pull harness but aren't pulling on it. My boy doesn't pull on it and seems to walk with ease, like I said, he also wears it loosely. I found the head halti to look and seem uncomfortable for him and after just wearing it the once he had a mark over his snout from it that did fade but I didn't like that. I'm sure he was wearing it correctly too.

[Rascalmyshadow]

I have a no pull harness for situations I anticipate to be more stressful than usual and I don't want to drag her around by her neck/head. Either because I have to drag her (frozen in fear) or she's going to panic/bolt and I don't want her to injure her neck (i usually walk on a martingale)

(the harness is not used as much anymore now that she's getting better, but for new locations where she might get startled and try to run i will use it until she seems calmer. And for "bad days".).

It's not the kind in the above pictures, it looks like this? It tightens around the body when the lead goes tight. So she can't get out of it when panicking. But when she's walking loose lead it's also loose (not so much as to trip her over or anything)

We also have doggie backpacks which I would think would also change the gait a bit but wouldn't think would cause harm if properly balanced and appropriate weight?

These particular no pull harnesses are one of the worst on the market, they are known to do damage, the vets where I worked refused to stock them and warned clients not to use them due to injuries they had seen, including what I would call holes in the sides of the chest near the armpit where the harness had continually compressed and rubbed.

I personally wouldn't use a Halti either since they have been proven to damage the sinuses and neck. A martingale is a much better option.

Edited September 28, 2015 by Rascalmyshadow

[Simply Grand]

I would also be interested if it damages them when they wear the no-pull harness but aren't pulling on it. My boy doesn't pull on it and seems to walk with ease, like I said, he also wears it loosely. I found the head halti to look and seem uncomfortable for him and after just wearing it the once he had a mark over his snout from it that did fade but I didn't like that. I'm sure he was wearing it correctly too.

Yes it does depend on head shape with head collars, there are various different styles and some just don't fit some dogs.

[Simply Grand]

I have a no pull harness for situations I anticipate to be more stressful than usual and I don't want to drag her around by her neck/head. Either because I have to drag her (frozen in fear) or she's going to panic/bolt and I don't want her to injure her neck (i usually walk on a martingale)

(the harness is not used as much anymore now that she's getting better, but for new locations where she might get startled and try to run i will use it until she seems calmer. And for "bad days".).

It's not the kind in the above pictures, it looks like this? It tightens around the body when the lead goes tight. So she can't get out of it when panicking. But when she's walking loose lead it's also loose (not so much as to trip her over or anything)

We also have doggie backpacks which I would think would also change the gait a bit but wouldn't think would cause harm if properly balanced and appropriate weight?

These particular no pull harnesses are one of the worst on the market, they are known to do damage, the vets where I worked refused to stock them and warned clients not to use them due to injuries they had seen, including what I would call holes in the sides of the chest near the armpit where the harness had continually compressed and rubbed.

I personally wouldn't use a Halti either since they have been proven to damage the sinuses and neck. A martingale is a much better option.

Martingale are fantastic in that they stop dogs being able to slip their collar but I don't see that they are any more of a training tool than a flat collar. Of course they are both training tools but I think if someone is having issues training a dog on a flat collar a Martingale won't necessarily make it any easier.

[Jumabaar]

(Not in response to anyone in particular)

But the idea of the front attach no pull harness is that it is a tool to use when training your dog NOT to pull. So once the training is done, if done properly the dog ISN'T pulling on the harness, same as when you've trained a dog to walk on a collar without pulling.

I know there are plenty of people out there who either don't know how or can't be bothered to use them properly and therefore the dog continues to pull against the harness, but that could be said of any training device.

So I'm interested to know whether when the harness on but not being pulled against it causes the same issues.

I believe that there is a study showing that dogs still shorten the distance they step when they have a flat front (like most front attach no pull harnesses) harness on with no lead attached to it. BUT it is in its infancy so no published data. From those involved there is a statistically significant difference!!

I would like to point out that if you decrease the range of motion in one joint i.e. the shoulder, there HAS to be increased range of motion at another joint.

Further these harnesses work amazingly well BECAUSE of the impact it has on the dogs ability to use its front legs. If it didn't limit their movement it would be such a magic cure.

I believe long term use of a no pull front attaching harness is equivalent to long term miss use of a prong collar. There I have said it. And I am not taking it back.

The experts in canine gait are telling you there is a problem. I am a baby in the field and I am telling you there is a problem.

Please I am not making money by making this recommendation- hell front attaching harnesses are something that actually gives me business! I just want dogs to feel awesome every single day of their life.

[Jumabaar]

Consider putting on a jacket that is just a little too tight across the shoulders. Then imagine having to wear it every time you go out of the house and have to drive, eat drink, play tennis in it.

Better yet since they use their legs for walking lets consider something even more appropriate. That pair of jeans that fitted last summer and are a real squeeze this year. Now do squats and lunges in them, go for a 30minute run. I bet you dont feel as happy, as free or perform as well as you could. You might even end up with a very sore tummy as it digs in every time you bend forward.

OR you can wear comfy track pants or sports pants that are the correct size.

Train your dog- let them enjoy their walk and romp naturally.

[Steph M]

Train your dog- let them enjoy their walk and romp naturally.

OK but the point is some people ARE training their dogs, using a front attach harness, whether you deem it right or wrong, its still ONE method which may work for some.

Honestly if the harness is the difference between a dog getting out of the house for a walk to the park a day or not getting out at all and being crammed in a courtyard all the time I feel like the latter has the potential to be much more damaging on more levels.

Not every training tool suits every dog, its said here often and it stands just as much. I can understand the concerns, and if they're not for you that's totally fine but there's been some very valid reasons for using them listed here.

[Simply Grand]

Quinn's very confused about why I just got her up from snoozing on the couch, put her lead on and made her walk laps of the living room on her harness then on her collar :laugh:

She walks fine on either but as a couple of other people have mentioned she is on the Easy Walk when I walk all three dogs together as if something happens I need to be sure I can control all three dogs.

Jumabaar, thanks for the info on the research, that is interesting and I'd certainly like to know more about the impact of timeframes of use, both per day and over time, and what the difference is between the pressure load on the harness.

I don't doubt that these harnesses certainly can cause damage if they are fitted too tightly and/or used for inappropriate activities but from what I understand they are actually meant to be used simply to give you additional control of a dog when you are training it to walk under control on lead. If they are used incorrectly, and it seems they often are, then of course they will cause problems, as would a flat collar, a check chain, a prong collar, a halti or anything else.

So I guess my questions are 1. If used only as they are actually supposed to be what is the impact; and 2. Is the likelihood of them being used incorrectly so high that in reality they do more harm than good.

And the third point that I think Steph made, would dogs that would otherwise not be walked at all be experiencing the lesser of two evils.

ETA posted at the same time Steph.

Edited September 28, 2015 by Simply Grand

[Steph M]

Way more eloquent than me, SG! Haha.

[Two Best Dogs!]

I have a no pull harness for situations I anticipate to be more stressful than usual and I don't want to drag her around by her neck/head. Either because I have to drag her (frozen in fear) or she's going to panic/bolt and I don't want her to injure her neck (i usually walk on a martingale)

(the harness is not used as much anymore now that she's getting better, but for new locations where she might get startled and try to run i will use it until she seems calmer. And for "bad days".).

It's not the kind in the above pictures, it looks like this? It tightens around the body when the lead goes tight. So she can't get out of it when panicking. But when she's walking loose lead it's also loose (not so much as to trip her over or anything)

We also have doggie backpacks which I would think would also change the gait a bit but wouldn't think would cause harm if properly balanced and appropriate weight?

These particular no pull harnesses are one of the worst on the market, they are known to do damage, the vets where I worked refused to stock them and warned clients not to use them due to injuries they had seen, including what I would call holes in the sides of the chest near the armpit where the harness had continually compressed and rubbed.

I personally wouldn't use a Halti either since they have been proven to damage the sinuses and neck. A martingale is a much better option.

What do you mean "holes"? Like burns from rubbing or on too tight or the dog spent the whole time pulling and rubbed self raw? We don't use it often anymore, been a whole month now as haven't anticipated a need for it, but I was always careful when putting it on to make sure it's not too tight, for the padding to be where it should be (it seems to ride up?) but not so loose as to wiggle out if it.

I haven't noticed any damage there or even redness. It'd be obvious as quite hairless under her elbows and the like.

I think the halti could work for some and it certainly improves eye contact but yeah I don't like how it whips her head around I've got one that attaches under the chin and one that attaches at the back of the head (slightly more preferable). I'm sure they work for some dogs but not for us it turns out :s

I much prefer the martingale. I've got one with a buckle side release on the way because my one beef if that I have no way to quickly get it off! A pain to put on and emergencies :/ and an all fabric fancy one for those fashion days :p and a regular old one mostly used for training/walks.

But I really like how they only go so tight then stop instead of constantly tightening. So it stops her doing a bolt, but doesn't choke her out. Still a bit more whiplash on the neck than I'd like :/

Edited September 28, 2015 by Thistle the dog

[Cosmolo]

People say "just train the dog".

Pulling on lead is about an imbalance of reinforcement. The dog goes wherever they believe the best reinforcement comes from and the pulling is reinforced by getting to access it.

Therefore, in order to address pulling on the lead owners need to be able to do 2 things-

Stop the dog from being able to gain external reinforcement by pulling on the lead.

Start adding reinforcement history/ value for NOT pulling/ engaging the handler etc.

There is no point doing the first without doing the latter. Many training tools HELP to do the first and owners forget about the latter meaning that most often the dogs revert to pulling on the lead- even if not as bad as it was before. (In these cases I think most training tools can cause problems because the dog continues to apply some pressure to their neck/ throat/ chest/ shoulders/ muzzle etc.)

BUT there is also a limited result gained by doing the latter without the former!

Front attaching harnesses are supposed to help the owner do the first SO THAT they can then do the second UNTIL the new behaviour becomes habit. Once the behaviour becomes habit you should be able to walk the dog on whatever equipment you like, though some owners prefer to keep their martingale, headcollar, front attaching harness etc as a safeguard or "just in case".

Front attaching harnesses are accepted far more readily than headcollars and often fit dogs that headcollars do not.The connection point being lower can also be helpful for some dogs who use any collar or headcollar to balance on their hind legs when faced with distractions etc.

Every dog I have ever put a front attaching harness on is already having their natural movement impeded (usually dramatically) by their on lead behaviour. They have pre existing, ingrained behaviour. The short term use of a front attaching harness can actually help to allow more regular movement in the dog than what has been happening on a day to day basis and allow more reinforcement to be provided which is what will actually lead to more permanent behavioural change.

Edited September 28, 2015 by Cosmolo

[Simply Grand]

Yes, what Cosmolo says! And that's how I've used both front attach harnesses and head collars. It's exactly the same as how you train a dog to walk nicely on a flat collar - prevent reinforcement from doing what you don't want them to do, provide reinforcement for doing what you do want them to do - these things are just tools to allow additional physical control of the dog if for whatever reason the flat collar isn't enough.

Edited September 28, 2015 by Simply Grand

[denali]

Denali, we used head collars a lot when retraining shelter dogs who were already big, strong and untrained and either never got walked or were used to pulling their previous owners around by the time they got to us. They are very effective if used properly but also very easy for a dog to learn to pull through and still be out of control on if not used properly.

A dog on a halti/head collar really needs to be walking next to you for it to be effective and you use it purely to be able to physically hold on to them to prevent them being able to self reward by pulling to wherever they want to go. As soon as people start letting the dog go and then trying to yank them back by the head they are not using the halti effectively and are basically making useless and even harmful.

It can also take some conditioning to get the dog used to the halti before you even start walking on it so harnesses are generally quicker to introduce and make it easier for people to hang on to the dog from the get go, with a bit more leeway for error if you don't get the technique right from the beginning.

Makes sense.

I've never used a head collar, because they dont work on cavs, the strap gets too close to their massive eyes because their noses are short

But i did wonder whether they were able to be used in the same way.

[Rascalmyshadow]

Why not use a martingale like a check chain, works well without actually choking the dog.

We used one on our Doberman and both Pitbulls years ago when there wasn't many choices.

[LisaCC]

Jumabaar what do you think of the Y Front Harnesses with the front attach on them like the Ruff Wear ones? They seem to give full range of shoulder movement but obviously if the dog pulls ahead the dog would be turned towards the owner.

[sheena]

I trained both my border collies to walk on a loose lead using a FA SenSible Harness. It gave me the opportunity to reward more often for good behaviour & when caught out without the halter, I would simply loop the lead loosely around their chest & work it a bit like a handle on a guide dog. I always take the collars off my dogs to let them run, for fear of them catching it & choking. It is a bit harder for a dog to hang itself if it is wearing a harness...but as I said, I use the Ruffwear ones & attach it at the front for my girl when we are walking in the bush. I have found collars no good for my boy, as he will slip out of them in a flash...even limited slip & I don't like the choker type.

I wouldn't let my dogs run in the traditional FA harness's, but I can't see the problem with the Ruffwear ones....better than a collar IMO :)

[LisaCC]

And for those saying they fit their harnesses loosely, wouldn't that actually make it worse? As the strap across the shoulder would sag down across the shoulders?

The majority of dogs in No Pull harnesses on the streets are in ill fitting loose harnesses that twist, sag and still allow the dogs to pull into them.