Older Dogs Behaviour To Puppy

[Kingbob]

Hi All

After some advice on the behaviour of my 3yo yellow Labrador Bennie, to my 7mo Beagle pup Archie.

I'll give you some background on them both before describing the problem/issue.

I adopted Bennie when he was 9mo, his previous owners didn't have time for him anymore, and i'd recently lost my 9yo labXbeagle Fred to cancer, so he came to me. They'd bought him as a pup at 10 weeks, and he grew up with their 2 kids who were about 5 and 8yo. So he loved kids, and was generally a typical happy friendly Lab. I'm single, so during the day when i'm at work he stays out the back, but otherwise, if i'm home, he's indoors. He sleeps indoors in my bedroom, either on his bed, or with me on mine. I did notice after a few months that he did seem a bit down in the dumps. My guess was he went from a family house with kids to always play with, to spending his days by himself. But he was young, and eventually he adapted and was a normal dog. I have multiple neighbors with dogs (3-6 other dogs are often with us on walks), and we often time our walks to go together, so he is well socialised with lots of different breeds of dogs. He also loves my neighbors grandkids when he sees them.

Despite loving chasing the ball etc, Bennie is a very mellow and relaxed dog. One of my neighbors dogs is Tessie, a female 8yo shihtzu/maltese who is very bossy, she's the alpha of the pack among the neighbors dogs. Bennie follows her everywhere, we jokingly call her his boss, and he's like the hired muscle. Another neighbor has a 4yo golden retriever girl named Darcy. We call her bennies girlfriend as he loves playing with her. She is the more dominant of the 2 though. Bennie basically doesn't have an alpha bone in his body, he's a follower, not a leader.

I had been thinking of getting a second dog even before I lost Fred, but put it on hold while bonding with Bennie and training him. But eventually decided that it was time. I knew he'd love having a playmate to run around with, so I started to look around. Fred and Bennie were rescues, but i decided I wanted a puppy I could raise. Looking around I chose a beagle, and found a very reputable breeder locally, so I put my name down for a pup. Fast forward several months and my slot came up, and I got the gorgeous Archie at 10 weeks old.

I was very careful introducing them, to begin with of course it was all sniffing, Bennie was like "What is it?". Then they'd boop noses, which would make both of them jump back, but within a few hours they seemed fine together. Archie followed Bennie the way only a puppy can do, you could see he was thinking "Wow this dog is big and awesome!". And if Archie went exploring, Bennie would follow to see what he was up to.

To begin with Archie stayed in the bathroom while I was at work, and at night slept in a crate in my bedroom, but they had plenty of time in between to play, and they very definitely played! Constant games of tug of war, and mouthing at each other, and general doggy playing. Bennie was big enough to just take a teddy during a tug of war, but he didnt. And if Archie ever let go, Bennie would take the teddy back, and sort of push it at him as if to say "Come on keep going, grab it!". And they were getting along fine. Bennie never hurt Archie, was careful not to step on him and everything. And if he ever did accidentally pull an ear or something and make Archie yelp, he'd instantly stop, jump back, and look at me with a concerned look as if to say "Sorry, i didn't mean to!".

Archie meanwhile has developed into a ridculously confident, gungho and fearless dog. He is very definitely an alpha personality dog. He'd not only steal candy from a baby, but push the baby out of the pram and jump in himself. And this is where things start to become a problem.

Bennie will let Archie sleep next to him, he doesn't mind that. If Archie is in the middle of their bed in the lounge (its big enough for both by far) Bennie wont get into it. If Archie gets out of it, then Bennie will go in. If Archie is to one side of the bed, Bennie will sometimes get in, but will sort of stay to the side away from Archie.

He doesn't like Archie climbing over him, or leaning still against him. Especially if Archie is fidgeting, having a scratch, cleaning himself etc. Archie however will climb in regardless of Bennie, he doesn't care what Bennie is doing.

But when Archie leans against him or touches him, Bennie has started to growl over the last few weeks. Growl may be the wrong word. Perhaps grumble is more appropriate. Its almost an under his breath kind of grumble, and he doesn't bare his teeth, and it doesn't really sound like an aggressive grumble, it's more of an "eeeww he's touching meeee!" kind of noise. but if he really gets annoyed, he will just get up and walk away. He has never snapped at Archie or bitten him or anything like that. At worst Archie has gotten a bark as Bennie has walked away.

Archie for his part takes absolutely ZERO notice of Bennies rumblings. He just doesn't care, at all. Archie is clearly the alpha of the pair, which is fine, one will always be dominant and I don't mind which. But what I want to stop is Bennie grumbling at him. I'm sure if i don't stop it now while its a newish behaviour, that it will probably only get worse. And i don't want that. They're fine when at the park, Archie will follow Bennie everywhere, but at home, he's boss.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to stop Bennies grumbling?

I dont want to tell him off because he clearly just doesnt like being leaned on, though he will let Archie use him as a pillow as long as he's still.

I'm sure he does actually love Archie, i do see him sometimes go up to him to sort of check him, and when they're playing i regularly see the play pose from him. To me he just needs to be a bit more assertive, and not let Archie push him around as much. If Archie is in the bed, then he should just get in and sit on him! lol

Any suggestions?

Apologies for the length, but i figure the more info the better.

They do play!

First Introduction:

Not impressed:

[Dame Aussie]

I don't really have any advice on how to stop the behaviour but wanted to say both of my dogs will grumble at each other on occasion if one gets in the others face. It never escalates and I just see it as communication. They're both 7 now and ave always done it. Sometimes they'll snuggle but more often they get grumpy if the other other one lies on/against them. Otherwise they get along fine and always have.

I can understand your worry though. Is there just the one bed? If so I'd get another bed so they can both have their own space.

[persephone]

please do NOT stop the grumbles - that is a warning ..and if the pup does NOT listen - next may be a snap .

IF there is NO grumble - and just a snap/bite ... because the lab feels insecure now his owner won't let him warn the pup ..he could do damage to try & rein the youngster in .

I would be teaching the youngster to sleep in a crate/pen to give the old boy some well deserved peace & quiet .

In our porch at present are 4 dogs - all in their OWN beds .. rarely do any of ours share a bed past puppyhood.

[CHA]

Yeah, don't let the pup take over the older dogs space if he doesn't want it. It is his right to sleep unannoyed if he wants too. One of my dogs doesn't like any other dog to be anywhere near him when he's relaxing and that needs to be respected. Doesn't mean they don't like each other. Isn't 7 months a bit young to be pack leader? Id be training the youngster to respect his elders a bit....

[persephone]

Cha- I agree! he sounds a bit like a pushy teenager ;)

[gsd114]

Let it go. We have the same issue we have a 8 yr old Ridgeback male and his best mate who he was with since he was 11 months old our female GSD passed. We know have a 8 month old female Cane Corso and we got her at 11 weeks and he was really unhappy about her being around him and would consistently deep growl at her and occasionally lung and snap but would never make contact. She learnt quickly to keep her distance it took 4 months for him to warm up and know they sleep together but if she gets too boisterous or leans on him while sleeping he does correct her with a grumble first then a growl then a bark and then a snap if she hasn't heeded his warnings. She is getting as big as him know and occasionally has a spurt of bravado but he quickly puts her back in her place. He has never hurt her once, she has hurt him plenty of times.

[raineth]

I wouldn't worry about him grumbling at all :)

Maybe just get two beds so that they can have some space when they're relaxing.

[Rascalmyshadow]

Leave them to it but make sure they have their own beds and space. We have 5 dogs ranging from 6 months to 6 years, as long as they are not hurting each other we don't step in, doesn't take long for the youngsters to learn to be respectful.

[Kingbob]

They do have 2 beds, but of course the little one wants to be wherever big brother is.

At night Archie mostly still sleeps in his crate, unless its a cold night in which case I let him on my bed where he tends to curl up behind my legs for warmth. Bennie tends to sleep next to my shoulder.

If Bennie does snap/bark at him, he still walks away because he's annoyed. But like i say, if Archie just peacefully lays next to him, or even rests his head on Bennie, he doesnt mind. I suppose I should just let them work out the pecking order between themselves. But Bennie is SO not an alpha, and Archie is just completely boss.

[Kingbob]

Cha- I agree! he sounds a bit like a pushy teenager ;)

Pushy barely comes close to defining him! Pretty sure he was the king of the litter.

[The Spotted Devil]

I have mother and daughter here. Daughter is very respectful of "Uncle Zig", my Dalmatian, but she has no manners around her Mum sometimes. Em is soft and Ginny is super confident so I'm really conscious of giving Em a break. Ginny is only 4.5 months but has several training sessions a day, gets to have free runs on her own or with Zig and spends a few hours in her pen/crate per day to eat and sleep. One inside, one outside/crated OR I will leave Em in the back half of the house. They still play together but get split up regularly.

[BC Crazy]

What Persephone said in a nutshell....

[huski]

I have a mother and daughter too and as with any pup/adult combo I ensure they are raised quite separately. I would personally train them to sit on individual beds not together. I also have a beagle who is an extremely confident dog too, but she doesn't have any tolerance for puppies so I ensure my 7 month old pup doesn't hassle her. This personally isn't something I would 'let go' - be proactive not reactive and train behavior you want to see rather than hope it will work out.

[Kingbob]

Damn it i hate typing a reply that vanishes! Lets try again...

So effectively you're saying i should do nothing and just them work it out between them?

What worries me is that one day the little one may be on the receiving end of a set of labrador teeth. Though i guess the complete opposite may happen, Bennie may just give up and accept the baby as his boss.

Sometimes Bennie will growl 3 or 4 times, then give a snap/bark, but then get up and walk away.

I say snap but theres no actual bite, its more of an "OH F#$K OFF!" and storming away kind of deal.

One thing i have noticed though, pup DOES take notice if *I* growl or grumble at him. I guess because i'm seen as top dog/pack leader, but he still thinks he is above the older dog in the pecking order.

[tdierikx]

How about you grumble at Archie when he's being a turd and ticking poor Bennie off then? If Bennie is just minding his own business and trying to have a little bit of alone time, it's up to you to let him have his space, yes? They will both love you for it... *grin*

T.

[Scottsmum]

Set boundaries. You dont expect humans to share beds & acceot annoying children do you?

Give tgem some personal space & some rules to follow (which can always be broken occasionally) & you'll have a happier life.

Otherwise you'll likely be back in 12 months saying "help my 2 dogs cant be in the same room ... ever".

[Ci]

There is letting them work it out and then there is a puppy that is being painful and ignoring the rules.

I think you need to set boundaries for the puppy too.

Tell him off when he is annoying the older dog.

Don't let him sleep on his bed. Make him leave him alone. Give him time out when he is being naughty. He needs some discipline.

Some puppies are very boisterous and they need reigning in or they are a nightmares as they get older.

The other boy was there first. Doesn't matter who thinks who is in charge, he needs some respect.

It was his house first and I don't blame him for getting upset at some little tucker who has come into his home and who is bouncing all over him. Let him have his space when he requests.

As the puppy gets older there is very much the possibility of issues between them if your other dog decides he is not going to take his behaviour lying down so to speak.....If he thinks that you are not doing your job as pack leader and disciplining the youngest then he will sort it out himself and you might not like how he does it.

Yes they will work out their own pack order in the right timing but you don't want it to come at a price. The youngest might not be so dominant when he is older, he might just be a cheeky puppy. You want them to be able to live together and respect each other.

Edited September 5, 2015 by Ci

[CHA]

The puppy is NOT the boss, he is way too young and inexperienced for that. The puppy is being annoying to the older dog and needs to respect his space. Either the older dog will show him this with a real telling off, or you will step in and advocate for the older one and teach the younger one manners.

There is no way you would let a 5 year old child be the boss or you would have a most obnoxious child, same with the pup, its young and needs boundaries set and needs to respect his elders.

[Rascalmyshadow]

From the first post it sounded as if a few grumbles and everything was sorted however if the situation is escalating and the younger dog is not listening to your older dogs warnings, I would be physically removing the younger dog and giving it something to do. I would also not let the older dogs behaviour escalate beyond a few grumbles.

[huski]

I definitely wouldn't be letting them "work it out". teach the puppy what he should be doing. Get him on his own mat and don't let him have free reign to hassle the older dog, who may very well run out of patience with his behaviour soon.