Managing Prey Drive

[huski]

I don't have a sight hound myself, but I do have a scent hound. I know what it's like to handle a dog with low to no pack drive who can self reward (scenting) faster than you can pull a treat out and even if you did... She will spit it out if she's mid scent. You can't train every dog the same way. You have to look at the dog in front of you and adjust your training accordingly.

ETA: I don't believe it is pack drive that makes dogs like Mals a popular choice for training and working roles. It's their insanely high drive that makes them easy to motivate - which can't be confused with easy to train IME.

But aren't you are starting with a breed that has been selectively bred to look to and work with people, not by itself for the most part out of sight of humans? They may not be biddable but few would argue that they are not highly trainable.

Of course, but it's very very easy for them to be steered off course. You can't have the ultimate sports car without knowing how to drive it, or any slight tap of the steering wheel could crash it. The consequence of getting it wrong is much more severe.

I don't believe there is any breed that isn't trainable and IME any dog can be trained basic life skills.

Edited October 27, 2015 by huski

[Salukifan]

I don't believe there is any breed that isn't trainable and IME any dog can be trained basic life skills.

Agree but some definitely are more trainable than others.

However within breeds it also varies. You know that better than me as you see way more dogs.

But if someone came to me looking for a good competition obedience prospect, I would not be recommending sighthounds even though some have the highest titles.

Based on typical breed behaviour, I'd consider it a likely disappointment waiting to happen.

But if lure coursing was the aim - whole different story. Horses for courses.

Edited October 27, 2015 by Haredown Whippets

[huski]

I agree 100% - but we weren't talking about competition prospects, just whether a dog can be trained a basic life skill like recall. Like I said in another post, it seems to be a common misconception that the more out of control or badly behaved a dog is, the more drive it has.

[mita]

Some breeds are bred to work independently - some to work closely with humans. Both might have high drive but how that is expressed and managed will vary by breed and by temperament within a breed.

Neatly said.

[Maddy]

You're comparing a herding breed to a hunting breed. One is more biddable than the other, one has been developed over hundreds of years specifically to chase. Apples and oranges.

[Salukifan]

I agree 100% - but we weren't talking about competition prospects, just whether a dog can be trained a basic life skill like recall. Like I said in another post, it seems to be a common misconception that the more out of control or badly behaved a dog is, the more drive it has.

You were talking about teaching a dog that everything good comes from the handler. I am talking about breeds where training that is, in my opinion, going to be extremely difficult, if not impossible.

SSM compares Salukis to "23 kg cats". She's bang on the money and that's what we are talking about.

Cats don't care what you want. They particularly don't care what you want if they have something else they want. A lot of sighthounds are the same.

"Come Howie"... say I

Howie: "sure, I'll put that in my diary for Friday".

Edited October 27, 2015 by Haredown Whippets

[The Spotted Devil]

I know of working Gundogs that keep chasing the rabbit no matter how high the e-collar is turned up. Gundogs get their satisfaction a long way from the handler - Spaniels can be soft...until that scent or movement pops up. It takes more skill than people imagine to get them working WITH you on complex tasks under distraction.

I love that! 23kg cats :laugh:

[raineth]

Sorry to hijack because I was going to ask a similar thing. Is true prey drive something you can control/train?

Yes, definitely. It is something that is genetically very strong in some dogs more than others. Prey drive is something that can make the dog either difficult to handle or extremely well trained depending on how you develop it.

I haven't met dogs with a higher prey drive than our working line Mals, but they will recall off live prey mid chase. There is no situation or distraction I have found where I can't make them reliable. I am sure some posters will jump and say 'but they are bred to be more bidable' but people who handle high drive working dogs or have experience with them, will know this isn't true - they can very easily become extremely out of control and difficult to handle due to temperament traits like their prey drive.

How you train a dog with an extremely high prey drive can differ depending on your level of skill and the dogs history of reinforcement (how has it learnt to reward its prey drive etc). But it is certainly possible. People who try to stifle prey drive or stop the dog going into drive without also giving it a positive outlet for drive will never see a high level of reliability compared to trainers who can harness drive and use it.

See, to me, that suggests their drive isn't that high compared to something like a greyhound. I've seen greyhounds with completely shattered hocks continue to chase the lure, screaming in pain as they go. They would run themselves to death in pursuit of something and to be blunt about it, liver treats, tug toys or praise could never be more rewarding than the chase. It doesn't seem to matter if chase has ever been rewarded further, the chasing is enough. And when the behaviour is its own reward.. Plenty of people claim it can be done but curiously, I've never seen a greyhound successfully trained not to chase.

I completely agree. Danes were traditionally bred for hunting, but because they haven't been used for this purpose you get a huge variation in their hunting instincts. My Dane happens to be one of the ones with a huge amount of hunting instinct.

Playing with toys and tug just does not fulfill her need to hunt at all. She will join in and have a bit of fun, but it is really nothing like how she goes for hunting. You can see her whole body quiver with adrenaline and you can actually see the pounding of her heart in her chest when she senses prey is near. In comparison the way she interacts with toys is like playing, her body language is softer and looser. From my perspective this seems to be one of the main differences in prey drive between certain breeds: some of them can satisfy their instincts through tug etc. while others can't. To put it in a different way, some dogs have traits that allow you to more easily harness their prey drive than others. This is why we see breed-related patterns in dog sports.

[huski]

You were talking about teaching a dog that everything good comes from the handler. I am talking about breeds where training that is, in my opinion, going to be extremely difficult, if not impossible.

SSM compares Salukis to "23 kg cats". She's bang on the money and that's what we are talking about.

Cats don't care what you want. They particularly don't care what you want if they have something else they want. A lot of sighthounds are the same.

"Come Howie"... say I

Howie: "sure, I'll put that in my diary for Friday".

I completely understand what hounds are like - I live with one! :D There are many different ways to train a life skill with recall... I have said on DOL many times I fine tuned Daisy's recall with an e-collar. You do what works for the dog in front of you - without question not all dogs are as easy to motivate as others. But that doesn't make it impossible.

I know of working Gundogs that keep chasing the rabbit no matter how high the e-collar is turned up. Gundogs get their satisfaction a long way from the handler - Spaniels can be soft...until that scent or movement pops up. It takes more skill than people imagine to get them working WITH you on complex tasks under distraction.

A lot of dogs will ignore an e-collar when they go into drive for something - IME that is generally poor conditioning of the collar more than anything else. But, corrections can also increase drive, a lot of people use prong collars when training protection for that reason.

[Salukifan]

When you look at those "least intelligent dog breeds" lists (how silly) you'll find sighthounds well represented.

At the bottom usually is the Afghan. The phrase "cat like" is often used to describe them.

They've never managed to IQ test a cat that I know of. Cats couldn't care less about performing silly human devised tests.

Like cats, such dogs genuinely aren't that interested in learning new commands from you or in displaying them on cue. They just don't care. So you have to toss out all the ideas that dog trainers (who often have crafted their skills on highly trainable breeds will bring to the party.

The principles of operant conditioning still apply of course. What changes is what such dogs consider to be rewarding and aversive. And often it isn't what traditional training methods would tend to suggest. And to a good sighthound, nothing you've got and nothing you've trained beats coursing. And good sighthound owners know it and manage accordingly.

Edited October 28, 2015 by Haredown Whippets

[huski]

I completely agree. Danes were traditionally bred for hunting, but because they haven't been used for this purpose you get a huge variation in their hunting instincts. My Dane happens to be one of the ones with a huge amount of hunting instinct.

Playing with toys and tug just does not fulfill her need to hunt at all. She will join in and have a bit of fun, but it is really nothing like how she goes for hunting. You can see her whole body quiver with adrenaline and you can actually see the pounding of her heart in her chest when she senses prey is near. In comparison the way she interacts with toys is like playing, her body language is softer and looser. From my perspective this seems to be one of the main differences in prey drive between certain breeds: some of them can satisfy their instincts through tug etc. while others can't. To put it in a different way, some dogs have traits that allow you to more easily harness their prey drive than others. This is why we see breed-related patterns in dog sports.

Some dogs have a higher threshold to drive than others which can make motivating them more difficult. Obviously dogs that have higher drive and a lower threshold to drive triggers like prey are easier to motivate, but easy to motivate doesn't = easy to train, particularly if we look at life skills where we want high drive dogs to learn to switch off.

None of these things make a dog untrainable, there are just different challenges you face with different breeds.

ETA: if you look at the flip side, your Dane might not be as easy to motivate and it takes more to get him to go into drive. But while my dogs are easy to put into prey drive, that doesn't just mean for things I control like tugs. It could mean a car driving past. Or a kid on a bike. Or a mum pushing a pram. So you are walking a dog down the street who could lock on to any moving object and go into prey drive, that means shaking, salivating, foaming at the mouth, lunging on the leash, barking and being completely locked onto the prey in desperation to bite it. If the dog doesn't have the right training behind it it can't be corrected or interrupted once it goes into drive for some thing else. Control is not an option with dogs like that, or you'll find yourself in a lot of trouble. that's what I mean when I say easy to motivate doesn't also make a dog easy to train.

Edited October 28, 2015 by huski

[Diva]

This is probably a little off the main topic, but I find it interesting that high prey drive working breed dogs will often be prone to what huski describes and direct that prey drive at moving cars, bikes, prams etc.

But high prey drive sighthounds seem much less prone to do that, or at least the breed I know. I have had some lock on fast moving cars on the horizon but only when so far away they were unidentifiable as cars to the dog.

I just spent time with people who have selected for high drive in their sighthounds for generations, top coursers but no issue at all with moving vehicles on a street, not until a rabbit jumped up. It's not training or control, just a much more selective prey drive. With a sighthound background it took me years to get use to people describing a desire for a tug game or chasing a bicycle as prey drive, I have no doubt they are correct but it just didn't fit what I had experienced of that drive.

[huski]

This is probably a little off the main topic, but I find it interesting that high prey drive working breed dogs will often be prone to what huski describes and direct that prey drive at moving cars, bikes, prams etc.

But high prey drive sighthounds seem much less prone to do that, or at least the breed I know. I have had some lock on fast moving cars on the horizon but only when so far away they were unidentifiable as cars to the dog.

I just spent time with people who have selected for high drive in their sighthounds for generations, top coursers but no issue at all with moving vehicles on a street, not until a rabbit jumped up. It's not training or control, just a much more selective prey drive. With a sighthound background it took me years to get use to people describing a desire for a tug game or chasing a bicycle as prey drive, I have no doubt they are correct but it just didn't fit what I had experienced of that drive.

IME dogs like sighthounds are generally selectively bred to have a much higher threshold to prey drive. I think this in general makes them more suitable pets which is why we see so many in pet homes.

I mentioned genetic memory in a separate conversation to HW earlier today and I also find that very interesting. How do sheep dogs 'know' what a sheep is and how to herd it when they've never seen one before? Why did my young Mal light up and start jaw chattering and foaming at the mouth when she saw someone wear a bite suit for the first time? She had never seen it before but she knew what is was and what she wanted to do with it :laugh:

[Diva]

Sighthounds I have owned or handled have had a low threshold for going into drive for traditional prey species so it isn't necessarily a high threshold across the board. It just seems much more discriminating - maybe it is genetic memory. That is a cool concept.

[Salukifan]

Sighthounds I have owned or handled have had a low threshold for going into drive for traditional prey species so it isn't necessarily a high threshold across the board. It just seems much more discriminating - maybe it is genetic memory. That is a cool concept.

I'd probably call this "selective instinct". A sighthound is unlikely to show much interest in a moving object that it can't course and kill. They seem to discriminate between animate and inanimate very well.

In the same way, I understand venonmous snakes tend not to waste venom on animals too big to eat.

I hope people reading this thread are taking away the concept that there is a lot more to purebred dogs than different sizes and shapes. I see a lot of comments on FB from people who seem to think all that selective breeding has done is produce varying "looks" to dogs. It is so much more.

To see frustrated sighhound (or terrier) owners who tend to think "why can't my dog be more like a BC or a Labrador" really peeves me. Do your homework folks and buy from people who ensure that you have.

Edited October 28, 2015 by Haredown Whippets

[The Spotted Devil]

And I think prey drive is much more complicated than we give it credit for. Working Springers tend to be much more persistent hunters than working Cockers (despite developing from the same breed). A Springer will work ad infinitum in the hope of finding scent. And they don't need a reward either - the process of hunting and scenting is extremely self rewarding. That's why they are so successful at pest eradication (or even finding human cadavers) - they just keep going and going and going until they find the last rabbit etc eg Macquarie Island.

[Diva]

Well it is a selective expression of drive or a variable drive threshold or something, I guess instinct is as good as any ( responding to Haredown, can't quote).

I agree they are more likely to spend energy on what they can course and catch, but Borzoi didn't kill all the species they hunted, the wolf was more often caught and pinned down for the hunter, and some of mine have caught and retrieved rabbits live to hand. It seems killing isn't always part of their prey drive sequence.

Edited October 28, 2015 by Diva

[The Spotted Devil]

Well it is a selective expression of drive or a variable drive threshold or something, I guess instinct is as good as any.

I agree they are more likely to spend energy on what they can course and catch, but Borzoi didn't kill all the species they hunted, the wolf was more often caught and pinned down for the hunter, and some of mine have caught and retrieved rabbits live to hand. It seems killing isn't always part of their prey drive sequence.

They are so pretty in full flight! I remember a lady who did agility with her Salukis. Bless her but they would put up with the whole silly idea for a certain amount of time and then break out into massive zoomies at top speed around the ring :laugh:

And obviously you do get much more variation when you're not selecting for that ability either. I remember being worried about how to pick working ability in my first Springer and was given the sage advice "as long as it doesn't have two heads you'll be fine!"

[raineth]

I completely agree. Danes were traditionally bred for hunting, but because they haven't been used for this purpose you get a huge variation in their hunting instincts. My Dane happens to be one of the ones with a huge amount of hunting instinct.

Playing with toys and tug just does not fulfill her need to hunt at all. She will join in and have a bit of fun, but it is really nothing like how she goes for hunting. You can see her whole body quiver with adrenaline and you can actually see the pounding of her heart in her chest when she senses prey is near. In comparison the way she interacts with toys is like playing, her body language is softer and looser. From my perspective this seems to be one of the main differences in prey drive between certain breeds: some of them can satisfy their instincts through tug etc. while others can't. To put it in a different way, some dogs have traits that allow you to more easily harness their prey drive than others. This is why we see breed-related patterns in dog sports.

Some dogs have a higher threshold to drive than others which can make motivating them more difficult. Obviously dogs that have higher drive and a lower threshold to drive triggers like prey are easier to motivate, but easy to motivate doesn't = easy to train, particularly if we look at life skills where we want high drive dogs to learn to switch off.

None of these things make a dog untrainable, there are just different challenges you face with different breeds.

ETA: if you look at the flip side, your Dane might not be as easy to motivate and it takes more to get him to go into drive. But while my dogs are easy to put into prey drive, that doesn't just mean for things I control like tugs. It could mean a car driving past. Or a kid on a bike. Or a mum pushing a pram. So you are walking a dog down the street who could lock on to any moving object and go into prey drive, that means shaking, salivating, foaming at the mouth, lunging on the leash, barking and being completely locked onto the prey in desperation to bite it. If the dog doesn't have the right training behind it it can't be corrected or interrupted once it goes into drive for some thing else. Control is not an option with dogs like that, or you'll find yourself in a lot of trouble. that's what I mean when I say easy to motivate doesn't also make a dog easy to train.

No I'm not saying Mal's are easy, that's for sure. I just think that the ability to harness drive as a training tool is different to a sight hound or a dog with strong hunting instincts.

I find that really interesting what you say about Mal's potentially going into drive for nay moving thing, like a pram or a bike. While obviously a Mal handler would need to be really careful with that, maybe it is that ability that allows them to really satisfy their drive through games of tug or biting on a sleeve. Like what some other sight hound owners have said, with other dogs it seems to be that their drive is much more narrowly focused. It might be as strong, but it's less likely to be triggered by a range of stimuli.

[Maddy]

You were talking about teaching a dog that everything good comes from the handler. I am talking about breeds where training that is, in my opinion, going to be extremely difficult, if not impossible.

SSM compares Salukis to "23 kg cats". She's bang on the money and that's what we are talking about.

Cats don't care what you want. They particularly don't care what you want if they have something else they want. A lot of sighthounds are the same.

"Come Howie"... say I

Howie: "sure, I'll put that in my diary for Friday".

I completely understand what hounds are like - I live with one! :D There are many different ways to train a life skill with recall... I have said on DOL many times I fine tuned Daisy's recall with an e-collar. You do what works for the dog in front of you - without question not all dogs are as easy to motivate as others. But that doesn't make it impossible.

I know of working Gundogs that keep chasing the rabbit no matter how high the e-collar is turned up. Gundogs get their satisfaction a long way from the handler - Spaniels can be soft...until that scent or movement pops up. It takes more skill than people imagine to get them working WITH you on complex tasks under distraction.

A lot of dogs will ignore an e-collar when they go into drive for something - IME that is generally poor conditioning of the collar more than anything else. But, corrections can also increase drive, a lot of people use prong collars when training protection for that reason.

And this is where we're going to have to just agree to disagree because punitive methods for discouraging chasing or teaching recall off prey (and let's be frank about it, there is nothing positive about applying static shocks to a dog's neck in training) are never going to be reliable on soft tempered but highly prey driven breeds. At best, the dog will learn to do it out of your sight, at worst, you will cause the dog significant pain and fear without achieving a thing.