Managing Prey Drive

[moosmum]

A bit of back ground- A 5 yo speyed bitch who has previously been neutral around other animals has killed a few rats in her owners back yard and discovered her prey drive.

I am not the best teacher, so looking for some good, easily followed links I can give that help them to understand better , and cover more than I can do in emails.

I doubt there will much assistance available in Penang. These are very responsible owners who will work hard to over come the problems, but do need help. She is getting very worked up with rats, iguanas, and monkeys in the back yard, but has also run out the door after a SWF (called off before any damage done, this time) Owners are naturaly very keen to get this under control before she does do any damage.

She is on lead any time she is in public with owners watching body language for arousal, Interupting and removing her from those situations while they work on the problem.

The dog is otherwise a very stable, calm and social dog. She lives with another much smaller speyed bitch, no probs, is very keen to please her owners and with the right advise and action, should respond very well.

I think Impulse control training is part what we are looking at?

Any assistance appreciated.

Edited August 23, 2015 by moosmum

[Two Best Dogs!]

Definitely impulse control. I'm still learning myself but I haven't had my arm jerked off for a wallaby in awhile and her reactivity to other dogs (aka small fluffies) has improved through the roof so I'll attach some info sheets that I've found useful. Does she know leave it?

leave it.pdf

We also have a 'game' we play which is operant conditioning as I understand it. It goes like this:

- dog wants something i.e. hunk of roo, ball, to come inside

- dog doesn't get the thing she wants until she looks at me calmly

- no commands

i.e. Dog wants the roo? I'm waving the roo around all over the place but she only gets it if she looks at me. So I can basically tapdance while swinging a piece of meat around (have not actually done this) and she sits and looks at my face calmly even when it's flying around in HER face. I then release word her to go eat the roo. Aside from the release word there is no words involved as we're trying to teach her it's a choice to prefer looking at me to get that thing the person wants?

Here's a video of someone doing the same thing with a hawk and with an awesome explanation. Also called "Look away"?

It's so when she sees something she wants (rabbit! Wallaby! dropped sausage!) she looks at me instead of running full pelt at it. Obviously not all those times I'm going to release her but she's been training into it. (or something she desperately wants to get away from but again instead of running blindly, looks at me)

To add: even though I can call her off a rabbit I would never leave her unsupervised around a rabbit. That drive will win eventually when she gets bored. So maybe get your friends on creating a setup so dog can not access other pets. Ie my rabbits have an always closed door with a baby gate that leads to a very secure chook pen with a fence around it.

Edited August 23, 2015 by Thistle the dog

[_PL_]

Sorry to hijack because I was going to ask a similar thing. Is true prey drive something you can control/train? I thought it was innate to certain breeds and basically hard-wired into them. Separate to the self rewarding term. Deaf to any input like 'leave it' or attempted physical distractions.

Silly question maybe but it's a simple version of what the thread would have been. :laugh:

[Maddy]

Sorry to hijack because I was going to ask a similar thing. Is true prey drive something you can control/train? I thought it was innate to certain breeds and basically hard-wired into them. Separate to the self rewarding term. Deaf to any input like 'leave it' or attempted physical distractions.

Silly question maybe but it's a simple version of what the thread would have been. :laugh:

Plenty of people claim they can do it with greyhounds but I have my doubts. I suspect in most of those cases, the dog has been taught (often through punitive means) that it can't express its drive around the owners. But when the cat's away (so to speak), cats may become fair game.

I've taken surrenders who were "taught" to live with cats and then went on to kill cats. Or chickens, or other small pets. I think if the drive is there, the best you can do is stifle it somewhat and honestly, that's an accident waiting to happen. I currently have a dog (surrendered from a pet home) who is apparently "safe" with cats if he gets told off for trying to get at them. But to me, that's not safe and the dog will never go to a home with cats.

[The Spotted Devil]

I think there are a lot of answers to that Powerlegs and it probably depends on how hard wired the prey drive is and how much training the owner is willing to do. I think Maddy's example is very pertinent and the careful placement of a dog like that is critical - hats off for being realistic! My dogs grow up with cats and see them as part of the family. But they would absolutely chase a cat in the yard. They would recall off it because I've put a BUCKET load of training into recalls. I've called Zig off kangaroos and I've whistle stopped Em on a roaming pet rabbit (note to rabbits: don't hop temptingly past a dog training club!!!) - she is trained to retrieve game and is off the Richter scale in this regard. She stopped because she knows she will be helped to find a retrieve. But without me there - nope, not a chance. So I think it's achievable but not always realistic.

[moosmum]

Thankyou, Thistle The Dog, Very helpful.

Sorry to hijack because I was going to ask a similar thing. Is true prey drive something you can control/train? I thought it was innate to certain breeds and basically hard-wired into them. Separate to the self rewarding term. Deaf to any input like 'leave it' or attempted physical distractions.

Silly question maybe but it's a simple version of what the thread would have been. :laugh:

I also think there are a lot of answers to this. It can depend on the dog, the trainers commitment, understanding of methods being used , situations, living conditions etc.

And what you mean by aversive type training.

I have a bitch with very high drives in general, truely evil on vermin with very complete hunting instinct. She is very dominant (for a bitch)but free runs with "farm' fencing on 2 acres with free range chooks, cats and mini horses and foals over the fence, brought in past her. She CAN sail over the fences, and often does when she hopes I'll let her follow me.

She also lives with a SWF. She is not a dog I would like to rehome, but she has excellent recall, and heal off leash, won't leave the yard with out me, and will only chase the 'roos away from the fence while they are on the other side( ignoring them when they are keeping away from the fence by 20 ft) If they are IN the yard, she will give chase but again, recalls.

She has free run mostly of house and yard while I'm home. That freedom is her reward for following the social rules I set for people and animals. Shes well aware that if I can't trust her with some thing, she will be confined until I can try again. Shes very keen to be my "2nd" so we used that.

When we are not home, or sleeping, she is confined either to the house or a run with kennel.

Fence training takes time, but we have a method thats worked very well with patience and not restricting freedom much. I think providing lots of other stimulation helps.

I'm pretty sure this other girl will respond much easier than my Moo. But again, not likely to be rehomed and that wouldn't be easy, but doable for an experienced working home.

P.S aversives are pretty much restricted freedom. Trained in ordinary check chain or flat collar. She has very strong desire to be a stable part of her pack/unit. I would not like to try running two females like this together tho'.

Edited August 24, 2015 by moosmum

[_PL_]

Thank you for the answers! :)

What has sparked my interest is a new pound guy here.

He looks like a steroid silky. 10++kg of pure muscle. And when he had the opportunity to get to a rat it was incredible and nothing like a Silky, nothing like any of the large dogs i've rescued. And nothing like any of the small terriers & terrier crosses I've had who are keen ratters in their own right.

He just became a completely different animal. The sound was deep and loud like hounds baying on hunt and he was sooo much stronger than his size suggests. Nothing else mattered.

He's otherwise sweet, manageable, docile, now crate trained, not DA or HA and honestly, I'm not going to try 'guess the breed' or tell myself or any adopter that he can be trained out of this prey thing because (as Maddy knows :) ) you have to rehome them into appropriate homes and that means no guesswork.

But I'm just absolutely fascinated with who he is and what he does. With the types and levels of 'prey drive' or hunting instinct in different breeds and how people manage, work, train or redirect much larger dogs than him.

Thankfully his legs are too stumpy to jump even a 4ft fence and he'll never be able to drag my fat butt after a wallaby.

btw

3kg Tyson as size comparison:

And Harold my bighead dude

still healing under his eyes, he came in with dirty crusted goober glued there.

[huski]

Sorry to hijack because I was going to ask a similar thing. Is true prey drive something you can control/train?

Yes, definitely. It is something that is genetically very strong in some dogs more than others. Prey drive is something that can make the dog either difficult to handle or extremely well trained depending on how you develop it.

I haven't met dogs with a higher prey drive than our working line Mals, but they will recall off live prey mid chase. There is no situation or distraction I have found where I can't make them reliable. I am sure some posters will jump and say 'but they are bred to be more bidable' but people who handle high drive working dogs or have experience with them, will know this isn't true - they can very easily become extremely out of control and difficult to handle due to temperament traits like their prey drive.

How you train a dog with an extremely high prey drive can differ depending on your level of skill and the dogs history of reinforcement (how has it learnt to reward its prey drive etc). But it is certainly possible. People who try to stifle prey drive or stop the dog going into drive without also giving it a positive outlet for drive will never see a high level of reliability compared to trainers who can harness drive and use it.

Edited August 24, 2015 by huski

[Nekhbet]

http://leerburg.com/training-articles.htm

there are also videos available free for them to watch, and free articles. It's a good start, the videos are clear with examples

[nyssel]

As in Penang, Malaysia?

Used to live there few years ago :)

Edited August 24, 2015 by nyssel

[Kavik]

Sorry to hijack because I was going to ask a similar thing. Is true prey drive something you can control/train?

Yes, definitely. It is something that is genetically very strong in some dogs more than others. Prey drive is something that can make the dog either difficult to handle or extremely well trained depending on how you develop it.

I haven't met dogs with a higher prey drive than our working line Mals, but they will recall off live prey mid chase. There is no situation or distraction I have found where I can't make them reliable. I am sure some posters will jump and say 'but they are bred to be more bidable' but people who handle high drive working dogs or have experience with them, will know this isn't true - they can very easily become extremely out of control and difficult to handle due to temperament traits like their prey drive.

How you train a dog with an extremely high prey drive can differ depending on your level of skill and the dogs history of reinforcement (how has it learnt to reward its prey drive etc). But it is certainly possible. People who try to stifle prey drive or stop the dog going into drive without also giving it a positive outlet for drive will never see a high level of reliability compared to trainers who can harness drive and use it.

Still, biddability is something to consider! There is a reason why some breeds are more common in high levels of sport than others - eg why BCs are popular and Greyhounds aren't!

[huski]

Still, biddability is something to consider! There is a reason why some breeds are more common in high levels of sport than others - eg why BCs are popular and Greyhounds aren't!

Yes of course, but I mean more that it isn't true that being a herding breed (for example) means the dog is automatically easy to train or handle. The 100s of working dog owners we have in with dogs with severe behaviour and training problems are testament to this, and majority of the time it is an issue caused by the dog having more drive than the handler knows what to do with.

I also think that different breeds are bred to use drive in different ways, a dog like a BC will generally have more drive than a Greyhound who is bred to use drive in short bursts rather than over a longer period of time like a BC.

Edited August 24, 2015 by huski

[moosmum]

As in Penang, Malaysia?

Used to live there few years ago :)

Yep.

Thanks every one. This all helps me get my own head 'round how best to explain. It was a steep learning curve for me, but very worth it.

The links will be a lot better than my own explanations.

Doh! Should have thought of leerburg, but the link provided looks much more novice friendly than a few years back!

[Kavik]

I also think that different breeds are bred to use drive in different ways, a dog like a BC will generally have more drive than a Greyhound who is bred to use drive in short bursts rather than over a longer period of time like a BC.

That is a very good point, and I think that and biddability and temperament mean that it would be easier to utilise prey drive in training in some breeds than with others

[moosmum]

Quick up date.

This dog is a very big girl, but behaves like a service dog ( before this) Her owners tell me she was likely the most photographed dog in Penang

and that every one falls in love with her.

She is a dog who needs her owners approval and they say their reaction to her attack on the SWF ( stopped when they yelled ) has put her on her very best behaviour since. They were very appreciative of the information, links, and say it all makes sense to them.

They are going to the more formal training to give this girl a 'Job', being responsible for her freedoms and setting their expectations higher, rather than lower.

Given her need to be a valued member of her family group, and now the tools to handle her drive we are confident she will get back to being the safe and friendly girl she has been, with effective control instead of relying on her good nature alone.

Thanks guys.

[Amax-1]

Still, biddability is something to consider! There is a reason why some breeds are more common in high levels of sport than others - eg why BCs are popular and Greyhounds aren't!

Bidability and high prey drive in combined trait is what gets a dog intense on handler induced prey items and makes the training of handler focus easy through distractions. Dogs high in prey drive for live prey who will barely chase a ball and have little interest in prey item reward for desired behaviours, the prey drive they have is in the wrong place to support a training in drive foundation. Prey drive without bidability is more a training hindrance than an advantage.

[moosmum]

Another update.

I gave a list of reading to do- Its yer choice, leave it, NILIF and Leerburg.etc and said to expect MORE of her, not less.

Let her know she had a responsibility to her freedoms.

They said it all made perfect sense, took it on board and did it.

Owners have implemented training and say so far... excellent!! She has had training sessions with the dog she attacked. Lots of Its yer choice and NILIF and is now doing runs every day with her owner on his bike. Was walked past a cat on lead and tho' she looked, didn't react.

Fingers crossed, but its looking very good.

They have moved away from the the old neighborhood and are very pleased with progress. Sounds like there may have been a little more to it as the small dog apparently was habitualy aggressively barking at her (and her smaller dog friend) before the attack.

Don't you love owners like that! :D

Edited October 25, 2015 by moosmum

[Salukifan]

I honestly doubt the attack on the small dog had anything to do with prey drive.

The attacker would have known it was a dog.

[moosmum]

I honestly doubt the attack on the small dog had anything to do with prey drive.

The attacker would have known it was a dog.

Yes, I agree. I think she had just had enough and chose to put an end to that nonsense. Maybe the freedom to satisfy her prey drive on her own lowered her impulse control.

I did ask at the time if there was a history there. They said no, must not have considered the behavior of the SWF to be relevant.

Either way, the training has been doing her good.

[Little Gifts]

Can I ask another related question from those in the know? I used to have an sbt who killed a few small things at unexpected times and I ended up managing it by controlling her environment. I lived on acreage when she came to me as a foster (quickly a foster failure) at a year old. She was fine around the chickens, duck and geese. She was fine around the silky bantams and cat next door. She was a good ratter and mouser and that was encouraged. She used to be at the compost heap eating with the chickens and she used to groom the next door neighbours cat till it was dripping. But if she came across one of my chickens laying and it made a racket she was on it and it was dead. When the neighbours moved some of their chickens in a crate and they were flapping and cackling she was trying to bite them through the wire. She killed a brown snake sunning itself in the yard. She attacked a 6 foot monitor lizard (it beat her up pretty badly in return and it died before I could get anyone to come and help it). I don't know what it was doing but she had been spooked by it before in our backyard. She found a baby crow on the ground and screamed and ran away when it pecked her on the face (it didn't flap or crow). When my sister got two kittens I made sure they were put away before we visited (because they had not been socialised around dogs) but one night when we arrived mum was carrying a little grey kitten, it hissed and jumped from mum's hands and my dog grabbed it then released it but it died at the vet. I'm not sure if she thought it was a rat but the damage was done. A couple of years after that we were living here in the suburbs and had a neighbours deaf cat who was always sunning herself on our verandah and it used to drive the dogs crazy because she couldn't hear their barking. One day we opened the side gate to our then vegie patch and she was asleep next to the compost bin. The dogs went to her and she went nuts. One dog backed straight off while this girl didn't. I eventually got the cat and rushed it to the vet but it was too late.

So what's the deal with a dog like this who under normal, calm conditions with a non-reactive animal is perfectly fine? She obviously has some prey drive given her love of rat and mouse catching and she identified the snake as a threat and killed it (not sure if she felt the same about the big lizard). But then an animal in distress or who reacts to her gets the big chomp. I think the lizard and deaf cat were the worst - I had a lot of trouble getting her to obey me to leave them. They were clearly fighting back quite intensely and that over rode her brain. This issue is partly why we moved to the suburbs where I could control what other animals she was exposed to as it is horrible to own an unpredictable dog like this. She was fine with other dogs and if we walked by a cat that wasn't worried about her she was fine and she never tried to chase the birds, possums or blue tongues in our yard here because they were minding their own business. Do some dogs get their prey drive kicked into gear with particular stimulus? Was controlling that stimulus and keeping it out of her environment really my only option?