Training A Highly Excitable 65Kg Neo Mastiff

[Pailin]

Female 4yrs old desexed very large girl who is incredibly strong and very excitable. She hasn't had much time spent with her and so the hope is that with time, attention and training we will see a calmer side come forward but in the mean time she is gigantic and uses her size against you.

She has had basics taught but previous owner relied on his strength and size to dominate her and she has dragged her female owner over in attempts to greet other people on walks.

I am thinking to start her with Triangle of Temptation.

What would be the best collar option for walking? She has a halti and can pull through it, flat collar is probably not an option until a little more training and control is achieved. She has been walked with a check chain and responds well to it... Am thinking this is the way to go initially but I really want work towards attaining cooperation through training and not just because she remembers how her previous owner dealt with her on a check chain... Even though at the moment the check chain is about the only tool that gets immediate respect (or compliance) from her.

Sorry talking in circles now. Any advice welcome. Thanks.

[Roova]

It probably seems like an overwhelming task at the moment and all I can suggest is where I'd start if it was me.

I would be getting one on one help from a trainer (I'm still learning too) and going back to basics with everything, especially on lead expectations. Slow, steady and positive work on where she is expected to be beside you, ie heel position.

I wouldn't be letting her self reward with things she likes more than you but maybe you could use them as brief rewards when you have more control back?

If she missed basic behavioural training as a puppy I would start from scratch with everything!

Good luck with her :)

Edited August 19, 2015 by Roova

[JulesP]

Professional dog trainer ASAP!

I came across a smallish woman walking one of these the other week. As we approached she walked to the nearest fence and wrapped the lead around the fence and held on to the lead like that. I was a bit alarmed but it seemed effective.

[Nekhbet]

If the dog responds well keep using it. Don't let a dog that big get into the habit of pulling and frankly those breeds to NOT need equipment around their face. In warm weather it can interfere with breathing and they need a lot of air intake to cool down properly.

Work on focus, don't keep just yanking on the leash ask the dog to respond first, mark, then reward. The leash and collar are there as a back up consequence if the dog tries to pull to remind it. The main thing with mastiff types is be patient and do NOT rush. They are not super quick border collies, they take time and some obedience positions can be uncomfortable for them to perform due to their size so make provisions.

"As we approached she walked to the nearest fence and wrapped the lead around the fence and held on to the lead like that. I was a bit alarmed but it seemed effective. "

All this does is help the woman hang on and frankly a few trainers are using it as a 'training' method. It teaches absolutely nothing in fact it puts you backwards and simply 'deals' with the situation at the time. Different equipment that actually works and decent learning theory removes the need for this type of thing.

[JulesP]

"As we approached she walked to the nearest fence and wrapped the lead around the fence and held on to the lead like that. I was a bit alarmed but it seemed effective. "

All this does is help the woman hang on and frankly a few trainers are using it as a 'training' method. It teaches absolutely nothing in fact it puts you backwards and simply 'deals' with the situation at the time. Different equipment that actually works and decent learning theory removes the need for this type of thing.

And I would rather the owner hangs on to the dog whilst she is seeking help rather than having her extremely large dog pull her over and jump on other dogs.

Or are you happy for the dog to get away from the woman?

I am surprised by this post as I thought you were more sensible.

[RuralPug]

I would start by rewarding calmness and being quiet, sitting for a pat etc. You will need to grow a treat bag on your hip if she is food motivated! You also need to cultivate the "cold shoulder" and "gasp! highly offended" body language to use IMMEDIATELY she does what you don't want - e.g. jumping up to greet you. Immediate withdrawal of attention for unwanted behaviour plus immediate reward for desired behaviour is what we want.

TOT is the perfect way to introduce the idea of her pleasing you to get what pleases her, so go with that for sure. Then clicker training or instant voice marking of the correct behaviour (or baby steps toward correct behaviour) is probably one of the best ways to start the want to please mindset in an older untutored dog.

To train her to walk quietly on a leash it may help to start with anti-pull Sporn Halter (since the halti isn't working.) A basic outline of some of the common positive training methods to achieve loose leash walking can be found here.

If she pulls when she sees another dog, quick about face so that she doesn't get the reward of meeting the other dog. WARNING - it is very important that you don't give a damn bout what onlookers might think of you doing six foot circles walking the dog as the pull/aboutface>relax/aboutface>pull/about face cycle happens. You can always interrupt it with a sit and treat if you start to get dizzy...

[Pailin]

If the dog responds well keep using it. Don't let a dog that big get into the habit of pulling and frankly those breeds to NOT need equipment around their face. In warm weather it can interfere with breathing and they need a lot of air intake to cool down properly.

Work on focus, don't keep just yanking on the leash ask the dog to respond first, mark, then reward. The leash and collar are there as a back up consequence if the dog tries to pull to remind it. The main thing with mastiff types is be patient and do NOT rush. They are not super quick border collies, they take time and some obedience positions can be uncomfortable for them to perform due to their size so make provisions.

"As we approached she walked to the nearest fence and wrapped the lead around the fence and held on to the lead like that. I was a bit alarmed but it seemed effective. "

All this does is help the woman hang on and frankly a few trainers are using it as a 'training' method. It teaches absolutely nothing in fact it puts you backwards and simply 'deals' with the situation at the time. Different equipment that actually works and decent learning theory removes the need for this type of thing.

Thanks for that advise. Picked her up this afternoon and she is challenging but responding incredibly well. She initially jumped all over me, largely aiming for my face. Knowing that her motivation was attention, I tucked my hands in my pockets and kept turning away. It took her about 10 mins but she eventually calmed. I honestly think the main of her issues is just lack of contact and interaction. She is lonely. It's just establishing boundaries and following through on them. I'm following the NILIF and she is responsive to it. Firm, calm consistency gets through to her well.

Took her for a long walk with my girl to reintroduce them (they used to play together a couple of years ago) and she has had basic leash training, she will just forget it if you let her. she showed a good amount of focus on the walk and I made sure to reinforce the no pulling by stopping each time she would pull and she would have to come back into heel and look at me before we continued. She picked it up really quickly and honestly was pretty alright to walk. When she got home afterwards and off leash she was no longer bouncy or jumping at all, she was very content.

Continuing the walking training, pairing that with the NILIF and time and consistency and I am really confident that she has the potential to be an amazing dog and re home well.

[Pailin]

I would start by rewarding calmness and being quiet, sitting for a pat etc. You will need to grow a treat bag on your hip if she is food motivated! You also need to cultivate the "cold shoulder" and "gasp! highly offended" body language to use IMMEDIATELY she does what you don't want - e.g. jumping up to greet you. Immediate withdrawal of attention for unwanted behaviour plus immediate reward for desired behaviour is what we want.

TOT is the perfect way to introduce the idea of her pleasing you to get what pleases her, so go with that for sure. Then clicker training or instant voice marking of the correct behaviour (or baby steps toward correct behaviour) is probably one of the best ways to start the want to please mindset in an older untutored dog.

To train her to walk quietly on a leash it may help to start with anti-pull Sporn Halter (since the halti isn't working.) A basic outline of some of the common positive training methods to achieve loose leash walking can be found here.

If she pulls when she sees another dog, quick about face so that she doesn't get the reward of meeting the other dog. WARNING - it is very important that you don't give a damn bout what onlookers might think of you doing six foot circles walking the dog as the pull/aboutface>relax/aboutface>pull/about face cycle happens. You can always interrupt it with a sit and treat if you start to get dizzy...

Thanks, exactly what I've started with. She isn't in the least bit food motivated, it's all attention for her. Even with the walking, it's the people that she wants to meet more than anything else....even better if they are kids, she loves them. Problem is most kids walking down the street don't fancy having a dog that size lunging at them to "love" them. That being said on our walk this evening, so long as I kept her focused and continued walking at a decent, focussed pace she didn't pay barely any attention to the numerous people we walked past so I have a feeling that these behaviours are boredom, lack of interaction with people, lack of consistent walks and lack of training all mixed together.

[hankdog]

I was in a similar situation 4 years ago, although at only 26kg not quite as weighty.

NILIF will teach her that you are the font of everything good and to get it she has to offer a behaviour. I taught Jake lots of tricks because it gave me some positive behaviours to ask for and watching your boof head play dead is fun.

101things to do with a box will let you start working as a team and give you insight into her learning style.

She has been trained to use her weight so I Woukd never ever go there, lots of patience and making like a rock if she starts pulling, just stand there and ignore her until she sits and gives you attention. Abandon training sessions if you have to because she won't do it your way. Just take your treats and walk off. The message is we play my way or we don't play.

Get a trainer you can work with. Find out as much as you can about your breed temperament and then find a trainer who is comfortable to work with. You should look forward to going to training not dread it.

I went through a lot of trainers, I needed hand holding on a weekly basis and I wanted someone who was prepared to deal with me and not make me feel like a stupid old woman with an intractable dog. You might only need a few sessions or you might want a club with weekly sessions or a private trainer. Do what works for you.

Good luck, I've only seen one of these dogs before but I think they're beautiful.

Edited August 22, 2015 by hankdog

[Nekhbet]

And I would rather the owner hangs on to the dog whilst she is seeking help rather than having her extremely large dog pull her over and jump on other dogs.

Or are you happy for the dog to get away from the woman?

I am surprised by this post as I thought you were more sensible.

If the owner has to resort to this then the owner and dog are not ready to be on the streets as it's doing nothing to help dog or owner. Obviously she's not getting help or the advice she got is to me, junk.

[corvus]

A head collar and front attach harness combo keeps most large, strong, and sometimes exuberant dogs under control without the need for anchor points. It helps to have someone teach you a system, though. I keep the head collar leash longer so it's firmly the backup. Helps to practice without the dog first so you know what to grip when. You can transition from the front attach harness to a flat collar or regular harness as training progresses. It's not okay to walk dogs in the street that can pull you unwillingly onto the road or on top of another dog. Safety first.

Sometimes socially neglected dogs can get kind of frantic. Lots of structure around social interactions and work on impulse control can help.