Puppy Now Dominant Weeing?

[EllieDog]

I posted earlier asking for some advice on a biting puppy, and we have her booked in to puppy school with registered trainers, but first session is not until 2nd Sept.

It seems things are escalating and she is now doing what I believe to be dominance weeing.

Every single time tonight when she has been told off and put outside for biting, or for weeing in the house, when she has come inside she has almost straight away come in and wee'd on something (her bed, a rug, a pair of shoes). She's been told no and put back outside, but then repeats the behaviour.

Are we handling it the wrong way? Should we be doing something different to discourage this behaviour?

[Salukifan]

I posted earlier asking for some advice on a biting puppy, and we have her booked in to puppy school with registered trainers, but first session is not until 2nd Sept.

It seems things are escalating and she is now doing what I believe to be dominance weeing.

Every single time tonight when she has been told off and put outside for biting, or for weeing in the house, when she has come inside she has almost straight away come in and wee'd on something (her bed, a rug, a pair of shoes). She's been told no and put back outside, but then repeats the behaviour.

Are we handling it the wrong way? Should we be doing something different to discourage this behaviour?

I'd have to say "yes" to "you can do better handling this". I'd also like you to remove the word "dominance" from your explanations of her behaviour. It may be popular with Cesar Milan but it rarely applies to pups.

If the pup is weeing inside, it's YOU that needs to be put out. You're just not supervising effectively. She simply shouldn't be getting the chance to do it. She needs to either be supervised, or outside or in a crate. One pee inside gets 5 more according to my vet. If she is taken out when she wakes, after eating, and playing it will help. If the head goes down and she starts to sniff, take her out and praise her for doing it. Either supervise or contain her.

"No' means NOTHING to a pup. Growling after the event also won't mean a thing. Reward what you want. Socially isolating her for your failure will just build anxiety and I actually wonder if what you are seeing is submissive wetting. Are you staying outside with her and praising her for toileting there? If not, I suggest you start.

Lighten up, supervise more and praise like crazy for what you want. It will get easier. But more encouragement and less discouragement will also build a happier more confident pup. :)

Edited August 17, 2015 by Haredown Whippets

[Pjrt]

I posted earlier asking for some advice on a biting puppy, and we have her booked in to puppy school with registered trainers, but first session is not until 2nd Sept.

It seems things are escalating and she is now doing what I believe to be dominance weeing.

Every single time tonight when she has been told off and put outside for biting, or for weeing in the house, when she has come inside she has almost straight away come in and wee'd on something (her bed, a rug, a pair of shoes). She's been told no and put back outside, but then repeats the behaviour.

Are we handling it the wrong way? Should we be doing something different to discourage this behaviour?

I'd have to say "yes" to "you can do better handling this". I'd also like you to remove the word "dominance" from your explanations of her behaviour. It may be popular with Cesar Milan but it rarely applies to pups.

If the pup is weeing inside, it's YOU that needs to be put out. You're just not supervising effectively. She simply shouldn't be getting the chance to do it. She needs to either be supervised, or outside or in a crate. One pee inside gets 5 more according to my vet. If she is taken out when she wakes, after eating, and playing it will help. If the head goes down and she starts to sniff, take her out and praise her for doing it. Either supervise or contain her.

"No' means NOTHING to a pup. Growling after the event also won't mean a thing. Reward what you want. Socially isolating her for your failure will just build anxiety and I actually wonder if what you are seeing is submissive wetting. Are you staying outside with her and praising her for toileting there? If not, I suggest you start.

Lighten up, supervise more and praise like crazy for what you want. It will get easier. But more encouragement and less discouragement will also build a happier more confident pup. :)

I agree very much with the highlighted parts.

It would be rare for 10 or so week pup to be 'dominant' . I also agree that you might be putting so much pressure on the situation that you may be creating anxiety. An anxious puppy will not learn as well as a relaxed one.

If your body language is OTT the puppy may be acting out submissive behaviour, including wetting.

when training a baby puppy, remember 'show me, don't tell me'

Persist in a calm, consistent manner above all else.

[EllieDog]

We definitely do take her outside every time she wakes from a sleep, after a big play, after eating, and after a big drink and give her lots of praise. She knows everytime she goes to the back door we will take her out. I would go as far to say as she is toilet trained. We are very tuned in to her cues of toileting, and at the slight sign of sniffing around, we take her out, always accompanied, and always with praise.

The reason I have called this dominance weeing, is because I believe it is quite different, and actually deliberate. She was put outside alone initially for biting and growling at me. She had been taken outside moments before this and done a wee. She came inside, without sniffing, positioned herself over my shoes, looked at me and wee'd. She was told no, and placed outside.

She was let back in, and came straight in to her bed, no sniffing, looked at me and wee'd.....she has repeated this behavior SIX times tonight.

In all of my years of owning dogs, my husband nor I have never experienced this as puppy behaviour. We accidents when we have missed cues yes!....but this is very different.

[Salukifan]

We definitely do take her outside every time she wakes from a sleep, after a big play, after eating, and after a big drink and give her lots of praise. She knows everytime she goes to the back door we will take her out. I would go as far to say as she is toilet trained. We are very tuned in to her cues of toileting, and at the slight sign of sniffing around, we take her out, always accompanied, and always with praise.

The reason I have called this dominance weeing, is because I believe it is quite different, and actually deliberate. She was put outside alone initially for biting and growling at me. She had been taken outside moments before this and done a wee. She came inside, without sniffing, positioned herself over my shoes, looked at me and wee'd. She was told no, and placed outside.

She was let back in, and came straight in to her bed, no sniffing, looked at me and wee'd.....she has repeated this behavior SIX times tonight.

In all of my years of owning dogs, my husband nor I have never experienced this as puppy behaviour. We accidents when we have missed cues yes!....but this is very different.

Nope. If she is 10 weeks old, she doesn't have brilliant bladder control and if she is routinely peeing inside, she ain't toilet trained. Frankly she sounds like she doesn't have much idea at all.

What were you doing when she looked at you... I had a pup that would pee EVERY TIME someone stood over her. It was not dominance.. quite the contrary.

I think you would do best to look to yourselves for explanations as to what's going on rather than placing all the blame on the pup. If this continues, get someone to visit you at home soon. By 2 Sep, some behaviours will be fairly ingrained.

Edited August 17, 2015 by Haredown Whippets

[EllieDog]

deleted double post!

Edited August 17, 2015 by EllieDog

[EllieDog]

We definitely do take her outside every time she wakes from a sleep, after a big play, after eating, and after a big drink and give her lots of praise. She knows everytime she goes to the back door we will take her out. I would go as far to say as she is toilet trained. We are very tuned in to her cues of toileting, and at the slight sign of sniffing around, we take her out, always accompanied, and always with praise.

The reason I have called this dominance weeing, is because I believe it is quite different, and actually deliberate. She was put outside alone initially for biting and growling at me. She had been taken outside moments before this and done a wee. She came inside, without sniffing, positioned herself over my shoes, looked at me and wee'd. She was told no, and placed outside.

She was let back in, and came straight in to her bed, no sniffing, looked at me and wee'd.....she has repeated this behavior SIX times tonight.

In all of my years of owning dogs, my husband nor I have never experienced this as puppy behaviour. We accidents when we have missed cues yes!....but this is very different.

Nope. If she is 10 weeks old, she doesn't have brilliant bladder control and if she is routinely peeing inside, she ain't toilet trained. Frankly she sounds like she doesn't have much idea at all.

What were you doing when she looked at you... I had a pup that would pee EVERY TIME someone stood over her. It was not dominance.. quite the contrary.

I think you would do best to look to yourselves for explanations as to what's going on rather than placing all the blame on the pup. If this continues, get someone to visit you at home soon. By 2 Sep, some behaviours will be fairly ingrained.

I wouldn't say she is routinely weeing inside. Up until this behaviour has started in the last 2 days, I would of called her toilet trained. She is inside in her enclosure all night without accident. During the day until this behaviour all her toileting had been outside, either from us taking her out at routine times, or from her sniffing at the back door. What has changed in the past two days is me having a "no biting and growling" tolerance.

As to what I was doing when she looked at me and wee'd, I was siting on the couch with a blanket and a laptop and a cuppa in a onsie! A very non-threatening sight I assure you.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I wouldn't say she is routinely weeing inside. Up until this behaviour has started in the last 2 days, I would of called her toilet trained. She is inside in her enclosure all night without accident. During the day until this behaviour all her toileting had been outside, either from us taking her out at routine times, or from her sniffing at the back door. What has changed in the past two days is me having a "no biting and growling" tolerance.

As to what I was doing when she looked at me and wee'd, I was siting on the couch with a blanket and a laptop and a cuppa in a onsie! A very non-threatening sight I assure you.

Toilet training is one of those things where you go back to basics as soon as you get a slip up, because each slip up puts more time between now and reliable toilet training. 10 weeks is not old enough for it to be solid

Without seeing this dog it's hard for anyone to say, but I have a breed that is well known for being very hard to toilet train, and that has shown me that we inadvertently train all sorts of crazy things while we train our dogs and inappropriate peeing is just one of them. Submissive peeing is a reality, be very very sure this isn't what you are dealing with because if it is, coming down hard on her will make it much worse.

[The Spotted Devil]

Yep. What you think is "dominance" could very likely be appeasement. I've had a number of pups the last few years for friends and all of them have been very different to toilet train. My own 16 week old pup still makes mistakes but that's my fault. I bred her and we have had a lot on so we haven't quite been on top of things like we normally would be.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

The reason I have called this dominance weeing, is because I believe it is quite different, and actually deliberate. She was put outside alone initially for biting and growling at me. She had been taken outside moments before this and done a wee. She came inside, without sniffing, positioned herself over my shoes, looked at me and wee'd. She was told no, and placed outside.

You're scolding her when she does something you don't like, and she's peeing to appease you and show submission and fear not dominance. That's my take on it.

I had to learn a whole new way of training when I got my puppy. I was a bit slow on the uptake but I did figure out pretty quickly that I could not scold at all or use any of the old school methods like a tap on the nose and a sharp "no".

And trying to correct her with a rolled up newspaper ended up rewarding the thing I was trying to discourage with a fun game of shred the newspaper stick. Cos she caught it and ran off with it.

So biting - don't scold for this either. Just be no fun at all. Freeze up. Hold very still. Or if you still have biting... try pushing very gently towards the back of the dog's throat until she spits you out. Lots of praise. Repeat the freeze as soon as she latches on again. I used to try squealing the same as a puppy does if you step on its tail but that didn't work on my dog as much as the no fun boring person did.

Helps if you have something called the "collar grab game" and a "geddit and give game" which allows you to grab her collar - and pair that with something good so she doesn't wet herself with anxiety and fear, and teach her to spit things out in exchange for something better or more appropriate like a kong with food frozen in it or some other chew toy. I used a lot of rope toys. I also used rigger gloves as tug toys but they don't last very long these days.

Play with your puppy, while she's good. Freeze up when she does something you don't want. She will figure it out. Try to quit scolding - cos it's not working with this dog. You can still put her out if she gets too much - just do it quietly without any scolding. Much better that than being angry with her.

[*kirty*]

I don't know that time-outs really work for puppies - they very quickly forget what they are being punished for. I think it's time to find a really good trainer to help you get back on track with your little munchkin.

[Diva]

She was let back in, and came straight in to her bed, no sniffing, looked at me and wee'd.....she has repeated this behavior SIX times tonight.

In all of my years of owning dogs, my husband nor I have never experienced this as puppy behaviour. We accidents when we have missed cues yes!....but this is very different.

Six times in an evening sounds like a lot even for a 10 week old, are you sure she doesn't have a uti?

[persephone]

First- a vet check for an infection in her bladder ....then a decent trainer (NOT a fancy named franchise) to help you all :)

[Diva]

I actually woke up thinking about this pup. If she does have a urinary tract unfection as I suggested last night and you are reacting as if it is dominance it is setting up further problems.

Please get her checked out by a vet for an infection before treating it as a behavioural issue. Utis are not uncommon in puppies and should be ruled out first.

[raineth]

I can see how it looks like puppy is deliberately breaking the rules. You've become super strict about biting and now she wants to show you what she thinks about that by weeing in your house. She knows she's not meant to do that because you've taught her the rules. However she knows that ultimately you can't control her bladder so it's a good way for her to get revenge.

The problem is that puppies, or dogs in general, just don't think like that.

She may have a UTI that results in frequent urination.

Or she may be scared of being scolded. Lots of puppies wee as an appeasement behaviour. It says 'don't hurt me'. You mentioned in one of your posts that she sniffed just before she weed. Sniffing can also be a behaviour that eases anxiety and communicates non-threat.

I think it's really worth trying to take a step back and consider these alternatives. You may even be able to take a quick video of it that might also help.

[Dogsfevr]

Sounds like your being very dominant owners & this pup is very confused .In two days this pup according to you has gone from being good to weeing in the house & the only change in your words is a No tolerance rule ,that should be telling you something ,it isn't working

I feel for the pup .

Im not sure what help you want as everytime someone suggests something you answer with "its all the pups fault"

I personally think you have gone over board with the biting ,Gundogs are mouthy by nature ,they love carrying your hand,toys or anything else .

Pups explore with there mouths yes we can control the degree in which they may be mouthy but you can't take away a natural method of exploration & learning.

I have owned gundogs for over 28 yrs now & never had one that didn't use it mouth from puppy to adult after all there mouth is there job

[Cosmolo]

In all honesty i think the two problems are most likely not directly related. And there are a few over reactions in this thread.

However the use of a time out (which is fine in many instances) uses social isolation as a way to correct a pups behaviour. When the puppy is socially isolated however, there is usually tension/ anxiety and upon being reunited it can be as simple as the puppy relaxing, the bladder relaxing at the same time and hence the puppy needs to urinate.

The puppy may be going to items that smell strongly of the owner simply because they have just been isolated and are comfort seeking whilst at the same time relaxing the bladder.

In addition i would strongly recommend checking for a bladder infection- particularly given that this is a new behaviour.

[Dame Aussie]

I'd get pup checked for a UTI also. That's a lot of wees for whatever reason.

I also wouldn't put pup out for biting, maybe just try and ignore the behaviour or redirect with a toy rather than disciplining her and see if there's any difference :)

[Sheridan]

I would start from scratch and instead of sending her out, go out with her as if she's still very little. Lots of praise and treats. I'd also teach her a trick where she gets praised for not biting. I mentioned in another thread that teaching my bitey boy to 'kiss' (touch his nose against my hand) instead of biting got him to get much better. I agree to rule out a UTI.

I know how despairing it can be. I got into bed last night to find one of my ratbags had done a wee on my doona because playing is so much more fun than going outside. Lower your expectations of your puppy and of yourself, too.

Edited August 18, 2015 by Sheridan

[dragonwoman]

I'd have to say "yes" to "you can do better handling this". I'd also like you to remove the word "dominance" from your explanations of her behaviour. It may be popular with Cesar Milan but it rarely applies to pups.

Lighten up, supervise more and praise like crazy for what you want. It will get easier. But more encouragement and less discouragement will also build a happier more confident pup. :)

Poor little thing, agree with above advice, and get her vet checked too