Scottie Is An Old Man

[Scottsmum]

How's the dear little man?

Thanks for checking in PK.

To be honest -I don't know. I think because I'm watching for things I'm seeing more and I'm keeping a diary (hard copy student diary I wasn't using for other things) just detailing our nights - again - because I'm watching its hard to say... does that make sense?

I dont think the vivitonin is doing much. Days feel a bit better. A bit less clingy. Tomorrow will be a full week. Lots of people say you see change in 2 weeks. The vet said to give it a month. Not sure what the options are if we don't think it is working.

He's still wandering at night. He seems to get lost - he'll get out of bed - then wander the house looking for you - forgetting or not realising to check the bed. So you have to "call" him back to bed - problem being he can't hear you - so you have to get up and touch him or get into his line of sight. Last night when he got back into bed he was a bit sad about the whole thing - he usually sleeps on my feet but he came and snuggled up under my arm and grumbled away - he was very happy to have found me. dear old dag.

We'd put the lid on his plastic crate (pp50) too -with a rug over it thinking it would help make warmer - but he's been avoiding it. Look the lid back off today and I caught him chilling in there 2 or 3 times - so maybe that will help a bit.

Life has been a bit full on too - I've had two huge deadlines in the last few days - within 24 hours of each other - so couch time with him has been limited. It's also cold and wet - so he's been protesting at being a prisoner in the house - but it's that or have him play in icy rain (snowing on the hills just out of town). I suppose that's the new normal we'll adjust.

The combo of Study and cold doesnt help routine and exercise for anyone. Unfortunately our activity levels are impacted by both.

Put the "leccy" blanket on the bed tonight. He did the bolt when hub turned his side off (it makes a loud click) - hubby had to get up and retrieve him from under my desk LOL...

So all in all just pottering along. :)

[persephone]

pottering is OK .. ask westiemum about older wandering dogs in the night ....

[Two Best Dogs!]

Poor little pottering old pup :) Could you set up some fencing/barriers so he is not wandering too far from his bed at night? Or does he let himself out to go potty?

[Scottsmum]

pottering is OK .. ask westiemum about older wandering dogs in the night ....

I've read some of the posts :) ...

[Papillon Kisses]

I had to look up "leccy blanket"... so he has his own electric blanket? That makes me smile. :)

I totally get it about keeping records / noticing things more, and then not knowing what you're seeing. I find it's better as a long game: once you get more data you can look look back and see how he was one or two weeks or a month ago, and have a better perspective. You might also start seeing patterns like X activity made things better or worse a day or two later, when you may not have picked up on it otherwise.

I had some interesting experiences with that when I was using a diary to track exercise and rehab from injuries. For example, I was able to see that doing a particular activity or treatment would make things temporarily worse, but that the time to recover from it was shortening over time. It meant I didn't freak out over expected setbacks! And with Malcolm I've also noticed that if has a stressful experience he might still be more reactive the following day, so I need to keep things low key for him. Stuff like that.

It sounds like Vivotonin might be one of those drugs that take a while to build up proper blood levels... some other meds are like that.

[Scottsmum]

Poor little pottering old pup :) Could you set up some fencing/barriers so he is not wandering too far from his bed at night? Or does he let himself out to go potty?

Just saw this Thistle. He's so beautifully house trained. He came from the shelter like that. He's only ever had one accident in the entire time I've owned him and ... well he was unwell, I didn't know he was off and he was in his crate. I won't say more. He will wake me or come and get me to be let out if the door is closed. He kind of sighs/groans when he needs to go.

Thank god. I'm not looking forward to incontinence I must say. It's not something I have ever dealt with in my own pets.

I had to look up "leccy blanket"... so he has his own electric blanket? That makes me smile. :)I totally get it about keeping records / noticing things more, and then not knowing what you're seeing. I find it's better as a long game: once you get more data you can look look back and see how he was one or two weeks or a month ago, and have a better perspective. You might also start seeing patterns like X activity made things better or worse a day or two later, when you may not have picked up on it otherwise.I had some interesting experiences with that when I was using a diary to track exercise and rehab from injuries. For example, I was able to see that doing a particular activity or treatment would make things temporarily worse, but that the time to recover from it was shortening over time. It meant I didn't freak out over expected setbacks! And with Malcolm I've also noticed that if has a stressful experience he might still be more reactive the following day, so I need to keep things low key for him. Stuff like that.It sounds like Vivotonin might be one of those drugs that take a while to build up proper blood levels... some other meds are like that.

Uh. If by "his own" you mean a king sized one on a large bed that he's "forced" to share with his two monkeys (aka Scottsdad and I) then - yeh sure the little bugger has his own. If you mean a dog sized electric blanket - no. I am too scared to give my dogs electricity. Who knows what he'd do with it. I do have two snugglesafes. They're one of the most incredible purchases I have ever made -- I'm so glad I did buy them - can't recommend them highly enough.

As for diary - i think its just good to have a really clear pattern. I think Westie Mum said something about ticks on a calendar or something. Good news is other than Monday - when you checked in (PK) every night since (tu & wed) has been great. Monday was a write off - he ate his dinner before I could give him his meds & I was up all night which he hates - he's pretty strict about bed time. But Tues & wed nights have been perfect - sleeping through the whole night, not stirring with the thunder storms (which he can't hear any more LOL) - coming to bed when asked and sleeping through. It's been great. This is the kind of update i was hoping to share. Tuesday he even had about 3 hours in the crate while I was out and only a short walk because of all the rain (we're getting about an inch a day at the moment) and we still had the best night yet. I think the electic blanket helps a lot - he's not cold and fidgety - he really does feel it. Anyhow - lets hope this continues for as long as possible :)

So fingers crossed

Edited May 26, 2016 by Scottsmum

[Papillon Kisses]

YAY, here's to a better week for Scottie boy.

And sharing a bed and leccy blanket with Scottsmummy and daddy sounds even better. :D

[Scottsmum]

YAY, here's to a better week for Scottie boy.

And sharing a bed and leccy blanket with Scottsmummy and daddy sounds even better. :D

Not for Mum and Dad. He occasionally gets in trouble for venturing over to dads side. He's really supposed to only stay on my side (and does know that his lands only extend as far as his blue blanky - not very lion king-esq) but every so often he sneaks in for a cuddle with his Dad :laugh:

Or gets in the middle and creates a little doona valley which in which he's fully entombed - but means our bums both poke out and someone gets puppy breath.

That dog really is lucky that I love him more then anything on earth ... any. thing.

cause I spend a lot of time defending his poor bed time choices.

Edited May 26, 2016 by Scottsmum

[Taliecat]

Scottsmum, we upgraded to a king size doona on a queen bed to avoid the inevitable cold bums and doona theft from Dozer, might be an idea.

So great to hear that Scottie is doing well at the moment

[Scottsmum]

Scottsmum, we upgraded to a king size doona on a queen bed to avoid the inevitable cold bums and doona theft from Dozer, might be an idea.

So great to hear that Scottie is doing well at the moment

We have a king sized bed and have never really gotten around to buying a king or super-king doona. I do have a nice king cover quilted needs no inner but it doesn't go on much as its a pain to wash and dry. We actually have two doonas - which apart from helping with the Puppy snuggle cave also eases the eternal he's too hot / she's too cold drama we live with.

[Scottsmum]

I've worked every morning this week - that's meant 3 days of tantrums in his crate.... 3 days of extra laundry to try and get dry.

Next week I have at least 2 AM shifts - and they're both slightly longer 5 hours - not the two I've been doing at the cattery.

Going to trial a slightly different way of managing our mornings next week (hubby usually walks then medicates & feeds last thing) I will suggest medication before walk & some supervised feeding (hand feeding) to ensure he has something in his belly before lock up... Hope that helps... I know the "old" Scottie can happily crate ... goodness knows what we'll do if we continue to have tantys every time he's crated... Just hope the neighbours don't complain I suppose...

[Papillon Kisses]

How's Scotie's new medication going, or is it still too soon to tell?

You are so right when you talk about the "old Scotty" being able to happily crate. My grandmothers both have/had dementia, and it's important to remember that when the brain is very sick or impaired, the behaviour you see is not really your loved one. If they are angry or aggressive and it's out of character or proportion, it might be that their brain isn't functioning properly causing immense frustration (or just entirely doing its own thing), or their anxiety is through the roof and they're terrified. If you can separate the person or the dog from the illness, perhaps thinking of it as the "illness talking", there's less frustration and hurt, more room for compassion, and you can get on with helping your loved one where they are in that moment, instead of dwelling on where they "should" be.

You have immense compassion for your boy and I'm not saying you're dwelling — I'm really just speaking generally there. But I'm sure it can be very frustrating and exhausting when he's barking at night or making a mess of his crate, and upsetting when he's aggressive. When these things happen, remember that it's not your precious boy. He loves you dearly, and it's not that he won't behave but that he can't. And take full advantage of the times where he is more present. xxx

[Scottsmum]

How's Scotie's new medication going, or is it still too soon to tell?

Well, if you'd asked at the start of the week I'd have said brilliantly. But this week he's been a clingy mess.

You are so right when you talk about the "old Scotty" being able to happily crate. My grandmothers both have/had dementia, and it's important to remember that when the brain is very sick or impaired, the behaviour you see is not really your loved one. If they are angry or aggressive and it's out of character or proportion, it might be that their brain isn't functioning properly causing immense frustration (or just entirely doing its own thing), or their anxiety is through the roof and they're terrified. If you can separate the person or the dog from the illness, perhaps thinking of it as the "illness talking", there's less frustration and hurt, more room for compassion, and you can get on with helping your loved one where they are in that moment, instead of dwelling on where they "should" be.

You know on a scale of 1-10 for the CCD I think we spend most of our time at about 1. For the separation stuff - we hover around about a 5 I suppose. Not sure really - it feels bad some times but then you read posts like the one on here about the little frenchie and realise things could be worse

You have immense compassion for your boy and I'm not saying you're dwelling — I'm really just speaking generally there. But I'm sure it can be very frustrating and exhausting when he's barking at night or making a mess of his crate, and upsetting when he's aggressive. When these things happen, remember that it's not your precious boy. He loves you dearly, and it's not that he won't behave but that he can't. And take full advantage of the times where he is more present. xxx

Nah - I think I get what you're saying. It is just so hard -we rely so heavily on the crate - I hate saying it but if it was to become an untenable option ... we'd really be ... stuck.

Like I said - we're really at a 1 - we only have a handful of symptoms and they seem to be mostly under control with the drugs...

I don't know... Coming up for a long few weeks - hubs is away a lot over the next 6 weeks so all routine and management will be on me.

[persephone]

What a road you are now on

[Papillon Kisses]

I wish I lived near you. I would so drop by to help out however you wanted.

[Scottsmum]

What a road you are now on

Deaf, velcro dog with dementia. It's all good. ;)

[westiemum]

I had a deaf velcro dog with dementia as well - or so I thought. Mac started the overnight pacing from memory sometime in late May or early June 2013 - and it drove me insane as I became incredibly sleep deprived.

I remember going to the vet on 19 June desperate for answers for him and for me. We focussed on his dementia, tried valium for example and nothing worked - if anything it seemed to make the pacing worse (or so I thought - as it turned out it was probably his airway closing). Finally by the Sunday morning 23 June we were back at the vet but of course he had no-one on who could help him with any endoscopy on a Sunday. So late that afternoon we went off to the Emergency Animal Hospital on Anzac Highway where the emergency vet was obviously a bit flummoxed and said it was highly possible I would lose him that night - Mac was in a really bad way. I got sent home and told they'd call if they needed me.

I tell you there is a God. Mac was having xrays about 10.30 pm when in walked Richard his 'go-to' surgeon to check on another patient (it was his day off). I'm told Richard took one look at Mac's films, said to the other staff 'that looks like laryngeal paralysis (LP) to me' - and immediately got on the the phone to me and without saying anything about diagnosis he recommended endoscopy and would get back to me in an hour - of course I said yes. On the dot Richard rang back and said he was 98% sure it was LP, he'd left Mac under GA and could go straight in and do a tie-back which he was confident would likely solve Mac's problems. So at midnight on a Sunday night Mac had a laryngeal tie-back and I got a new dog back on the following Tuesday. Overnight pacing completely gone.

I think there were two things going on here - first we got side-tracked by his dementia and focussed on that and secondly no-one really seriously considered LP in a small breed dog - its usually found in much bigger breeds. (Labs, Goldens, Rotties, St Bernards etc). But is known to occasionally occur in small breeds. (I know of a Papillon who has LP in the US at the moment)

In hindsight, I think the cues were there for a long time before we hit respiratory crisis on 23 June 2013. Mac had consistently literally been sitting down on the job on walks and refusing to go any further - cue one. His bark changed - I joked about his 'sexy husky bark' - and so did everyone else - cue two. He started hanging his head right over the edge of the lounge and I think for some reason he found it easier to breathe in that position - cue three. These were major cues I missed and indicators that something was seriously wrong and of course I didn't join the dots until it was too late. He didn't have any inspiratory noise or coughing that I noticed.

So my long-winded point is SM - make sure you get the differential diagnosis right. And don't assume it's dementia pacing when the pacing could be indicative of other things. If Scottie has any of the following then I'd be querying LP and booking in for an endoscopy pronto:

• Panting
• Noisy respiration and a high-pitched sound when breathing in (most common)
• Change in character of the bark
• Occasional coughing
• Reduced activity, exercise intolerance
• Elevated rectal temperature (especially during warm weather months)

I don't wish to scare anyone but respiratory crisis due to LP is a medical emergency - the dog is literally suffocating to death with a paralysed closed airway - and its a miserable way to die. So its important to avoid crisis at all costs if at all possible and stay in control - not to mention the money you'll save on Sunday night emergency surgery if you deal with it in a controlled way. Tie-back surgery at the age of 13 gave Mac well over two more years of quality life.

Hope it helps SM. Would be very interested in a Scottie update.

Edited June 15, 2016 by westiemum

[Scottsmum]

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• Panting
• Noisy respiration and a high-pitched sound when breathing in (most common)
• Change in character of the bark
• Occasional coughing
• Reduced activity, exercise intolerance
• Elevated rectal temperature (especially during warm weather months)

I don't wish to scare anyone but respiratory crisis due to LP is a medical emergency - the dog is literally suffocating to death with a paralysed closed airway. So its important to avoid crisis at all costs if at all possible and stay in control - not to mention the money you'll save on Sunday night emergency surgery if you deal with it in a controlled way.

Hope it helps SM. Would be very interested in a Scottie update.

Yikes. WM now you have me worried. Re your list

1: Some panting but always resolved with a drink or removing a blanket.

2: Not that I've noticed

3: Some reduced exercise - but put down to arthritis / dodgy back

4: He's always had a cough - since I've had him - not persistent or annoying (to us at least) its not a hack or anything. Can't remember the last time I heard it - but we did have him checked when we first got him as the vet nurse I mentioned it to said a cough is often associated with heart disease in small dogs.

5: no change in his bark - don't hear it often but its as big and booming as ever.

: never had any comments that his temp was elevated when we've visited the vets.

How is it diagnosed it outside of emergency?

By the way - the vivitonin seems to really work a charm when given exactly as it should be (on empty tum etc). The tantys also seem to have stopped with me ensuring he's given his meds - then walked and fed - I assume the walk gets his little body pumping and lets them kick in. We're also back to basically sleeping through full nights - except when he refuses to pee before bed (too cold) then (seriously and for reals) needs to pee a few hours later. The other night I was out like a light (7am starts will do that to ya) and he sat on my chest and groaned until I got up - well I woke up to him groaning.... he was out for ages.

Edited June 15, 2016 by Scottsmum

[Scottsmum]

I wish I lived near you. I would so drop by to help out however you wanted.

Ah PK - Just saw this :heart: - not sure how I missed it! You're a gem. I wish we'd met before I'd moved - I'll be home in October at staying in Marrickville - we should aim for a coffee so I can meet Mal - I mean meet you

Edited June 15, 2016 by Scottsmum

[westiemum]

Sorry SM - don't want to scare you but believe me - 23 June 2013 was the worst day of my life - and if I can help others avoid it then thats a good thing.

As to non-emergency diagnosis its a combination of the clinical signs I listed above and xray. Then if suspicious confirmed through endoscopy.

I always get worried when people talk about unresolved overnight pacing and/or panting. So I thought Mac's story was worth repeating. In his case nothing resolved the pacing and panting and the dementia drugs (valium, vivitonin etc) didn't help. Whereas you're back to sleeping through the night, his bark's normal and the vivtonin seems to work.

So unless you are worried, I think its more a case of talk it through with your vet when you are next there.

Edited June 15, 2016 by westiemum