Melbourne Dog Parks

[Two Best Dogs!]

Okay so I've narrowed in down to the Diamond Creek dog park on account of the secure fencing and different sections and what appears to be an active ranger presence. There's even an obedience training area for agility! I do hope in a year or so this is something she can do. When I take her to the You Yangs she parkours all over the place. Very bouncy for such a big dog!

ANYWAY I'm thinking Thistle and I will go late in the day when most people have hopefully gone (and also cause she'll already have burnt off energy with her walkies)

For our first visit we are just going to go for a walk like normal around the whole dog park...or as much as possible, the paths around the outside of it are kind of unclear... Nothing out of the usual for her because it's a new location. Sniff the daisies type deal so I can scope the park out.

Here's the bolded info from the council on the bits I personally found interesting, will report back Saturday night on if this is something we will do again:

http://www.nillumbik.vic.gov.au/files/88d7da5a-e03e-4016-8531-a44b009c354b/Diamond_Creek_dog_park.docx

The park has three different zones to accommodate all types of dogs.

Zone 1 Play/runabout zone

This zone provides a space where dogs can run free and where there are stimulating environments to explore. It includes mounding and climbable features, open run about areas and rock features for climbing.

Zone 2 Education/training zone

This zone is to support the early stages of dog obedience training and includes built-in agility training equipment.

Zone 3 Small dog/Timeout zone

This zone creates an area where small or timid dogs can play leash-free away from larger dogs. The space can also act as a time-out area for owners who want to temporarily remove their dogs from the energy of the park to settle them down.

So yeah, our first visit will be a nice casual onlead stroll around the dog park without any interactions. Not different from our Darebin creek strolls really. More circular.

Edited July 3, 2015 by Thistle the dog

[persephone]

:) photos are a MUST-DO :) ;)

* thinks just how much things have changed since the 70's/80's when I was a Melbourne dog owner - no dog parks then , and very few dogs at places like Darebin Parklands, Hay's Paddock/Brighton Beach .. and out Diamond Creek way ... 'twas wonderful :) All we had to do was stay away from Greyhounds being exercised .

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Hi Snook

It's possible that initially the timing of my treat was wrong. But Frosty is insanely good at back chaining. I get a lot further with no treats, just pats and praise. Treats can work with some dogs. Just doesn't work with my evil hound. And people need to be aware that some dogs can "fake" fierce to get treats. I'm not sure "fake" is the right word for it. She will be fierce to get treats if that has worked for her in the past. My mistake.

I would not be putting a dog that does not like strange dogs in a situation where they will encounter strange dogs running up to or approaching them in any way that you cannot control.

That would be nice but where I live it can happen anywhere. The footpaths where dogs are supposed to be on lead it happens. It happens at the park too. I had to leave the park tonight because two dogs were very persistent at getting in our face. Maybe the owners thought she'd be ok because she was with a lot of other dogs - tho she was on lead most of the time. But they didn't ask. And the other dogs were not ok with their dog approaching uninvited at speed either - there was a whole pack of little dogs herding off the big rude dog. And me holding mine back.

And I definitely can't yell at the owner to call their dog back. In my experience if they're stupid enough to let their dog approach mine on lead without asking - then they're not going to have any kind of recall either. And my dog will take my yelling as something to help with and she will tell the dog to rack off too... and if it's a bit slow on the uptake (and jumping on her) she nips it so it hurts...

I can't say she's doing it out of fear. So it's not the same situation as Justice. And possibly not the same as Thistle Dog.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

avoiding places where there is a greater likelihood of it happening.

yup. this would include fenced dog parks - including the outsides of them.

At least with an unfenced one - if you take your dog across a road and the other dog follows you... the owners start to get a clue.

PS I stopped reading the reactive dogs thread and posting in it, because the more anxious I was about how she might react to new dogs... the worse she was. Ie reading that thread made us both worse.

We're heaps better than we used to be. Avoiding my brother's dog and his training methods also helps. Nobody in the city is into "letting the dogs sort it out" any more.

Edited July 3, 2015 by Mrs Rusty Bucket

[Two Best Dogs!]

avoiding places where there is a greater likelihood of it happening.

...snip

PS I stopped reading the reactive dogs thread and posting in it, because the more anxious I was about how she might react to new dogs... the worse she was. Ie reading that thread made us both worse.

...snip

i confess i'm beginning to feel that way too, so i probably won't come back to this thread after i post the results for tomorrow's test run (in case other ppl are googling diamond creek like i was and want to know what it is like). i overthink and get really anxious and then she gets really anxious :c so we're going to have a chill night followed by a chill day that ends with a quick scope-it-out walk around the dog park. then on sunday we'll go to behaviour class and report on what we saw to the trainer.

no offence to you guys, your experiences and what worked and didn't work for you are valid and you're clearly speaking from lots of experience!

but so is my trainer who has been working with us for 6 weeks now, and my other trainer who is in agreement, that it would be okay to start out slowly working on calm behaviour training / greeting practice (yes 3 second rule, ours is 2 seconds) in the vicinity of dogs in addition to weekly classes.

also because it is so hard to really show how we're going through the text on the internet, I hope you can take my word for it that we are going to take it slowly and minimise as much risk as possible.

but there will always be a bit of risk when we take another step forward and out of the house. a carefully planned step, right down to maps, timing and time of day.

so i hope you don't mind if i unsubscribe from this thread, i really just wanted to know from locals if there a dog parks that are really bad or stand out as 5 star amazing places....

[Simply Grand]

Thistle the dog...

There is this thing about dog fences... I've seen two dogs having a full on go at each other - teeth bared, gnashing, growling, fence slamming... only to find - just 2m that way - the fence ends and there was no barrier at all.

And the behaviour of the two dogs towards each other where there was no fence. COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.

Ie polite apologies and careful sniffing then ignoring... WTF?

So allowing your dog to greet another dog through a fence may not do anything useful.

Some things that help.

1. What I do. Seriously - if I yell at someone to keep their dog away - my dog wants to help. So I have to be all polite and smiles and do my best to avoid but sometimes - the problem dog sneaks up on us and my dog goes over the top (TAR - Too Aroused to Respond) (yeah I know not a proper acronym). And all I can do is try to get her attention on me and wait for the owner who is almost always a bit thick - because my dog was getting along fine with those other dogs there... but not the new one... hello? Pack ok - not strangers. I usually get my dog slightly off her front feet so she can't lunge at the other dog. Ie the less of the unwanted behaviour she can manage the better.

2. Really short greetings with under control (on lead) new dogs, ie say hello, lets go... You can do this more than once with the same dog but don't give either long enough to say something the other one thinks is rude.

3. Having a cue word for "friend". So mine is "who dat dere?" and if I say that it puts my dog in a very happy frame of mind whether we get to say hello or not. With a new dog - there is hardly any chance of a bad reaction from my dog if I've used this cue. I don't like to use it with a dog that I know will trigger her, or one that is off lead - because if that dog gets in her face - it can still go pear shaped and I damage my cue. But it's great for stopping her from reacting to dogs over there.

4. frustration and back chaining - ie no food allowed. One of the things my dog loves best is food and hence loves foraging at the park. This can be extremely bad for her health - because loads of things that dogs must not eat get dropped in the school playground or dumped out of cars which have finished with their chicken take away. So my dog will fake wanting to greet and play with another dog - in order to get off lead. It used to work and she'd go foraging (not playing - argh). These days I don't let her off lead - which leads to frustration. I used to try to get her attention back with food. That did not end well either. Ie she'd get frustrated, bark and lunge cos she wanted to get off lead... I'd try food, she'd stop barking and lunging and eat, but she'd work out, bark and lunge - get food. OOPS. The brainier the dog the worse and more complicated this "back chaining" can be.

It's impossible to say how many dogs and people you should look for to help retrain your dog. It all depends on your dog's threshold. Which is easier to manage with distance. The more people around - the more likely there will be one who doesn't give a stuff about leash laws or checking first to see if it's ok to let their dog greet yours.

Hence you'd be better off working at the edge of a dog training club or competition where all the dogs are on lead or under control.

I'm sorry but I strongly disagree with some of this advice.

1. I would not be putting a dog that does not like strange dogs in a situation where they will encounter strange dogs running up to or approaching them in any way that you cannot control. If I'm in a situation where an off leash dog appears unexpectedly and rushes toward my dog and assuming I'm not in a position to get us safely away, my first step is to ask the owner to call their dog back, then body block the dog so it cannot get to mine until the other owner can retrieve their dog and if the dog slips past me I will do what I can to grab the other dog and physically restrain them from getting to my dog whilst trying to keep my dog behind me. At no time would I pull my dog off of his front paws so that he was not only frightened but feeling even more vulnerable and unable to defend himself, given that I want him to trust me and rely on me to protect him. There is also the risk that your dog will see being pulled off it's paws as punishment and then associate other dogs with being punished, increasing reactivity.

2. I agree that very short greetings with new dogs are best and many follow the three second rule, which is to count out 1, 2 and on 3 you move away. However, I don't think it's necessary for reactive dogs to meet strange dogs that are unknown quantities. It would be much, much better when your dog is ready, to meet new dogs in a controlled setting where the other dog has been vetted beforehand to ensure they are an appropriate dog for your dog to meet and minimise any chance of things going wrong and undoing the progress that has been made with your dog.

4. Food is an incredibly powerful tool for counter conditioning and desensitising dogs to triggers. Out of all the owners of reactive dogs I've spoken to and all the trainers and behaviourists I've spoken to, I've not heard of what you describe happening unless the timing of the treat delivery is wrong. I'm not saying it's not happening with Frosty by any means but I do think it is something that would be such a rarity that it's not a good example of how the majority of dogs respond to the use of food in behaviour modification training and not a reason for people to avoid using food.

I agree with you Snook, and I think the problems Mrs RB has raised are all issues of timing and "setting up for success".

Putting a reactive dog in a park where there are off leash dogs that can approach you is setting yourself and the dog up for failure. Dogs WILL approach in those areas and it doesn't matter whether the off leash dog has the best recall in the world or none at all, by the time the dog is running towards your dog and the other owner has time to call the damage has been done either way (as you well know Snook).

Now I have done a whole heap of training with my dogs at off leash dog parks and have had great success BUT their issues and temperaments are suitable for it and I've seen the progress. If they weren't progressing or were going backwards I wouldn't have continued. Thistle, I think your plan sounds good and you have your trainer's help and support which is great. My main warning after years of dog parks is err on the side of caution, take it slow and don't go at busy times, as you've already said you will do. You may well find that you come across some regulars with compatible dogs who can help you with your training down the track :) Or you may not.

Re back chaining, yeah dogs will do it. Quinn picked it up super quickly with me teaching her "stay down" cue, the cue and reward are for keeping four feet on the ground when she greeted people and as soon as she got that she'd be running up to people and deliberately not jumping on them then racing back to me for her treat. It took me longer to realise she was doing it than it did for her to figure out it worked. Even Riley, who is far from clever or a quick learner has figured it out with his "be nice" cue (approach a dog he wants to react to, not react then come back to me for a treat). Because they were offering "desirable" behaviours (sort of) it was easy enough to manage using variable reward schedules and asking unexpected different means of getting the reward sometimes, meaning that the run up/don't do anything/run back to me behaviour stops having the predictable treat outcome they wanted and therefore less worth trying (it's a bit more complicated than that but so hard to explain in writing!)

However if your dog is offering an undesirable behaviour as part of the chain you obviously can't let them keep doing it so you need to go back further than the dog has and introduce new desirable behaviours that you can capture. If you let the dog get to the point of lunging and growling then reward them for stopping you are rewarding the wrong thing at the wrong time. You need to keep the dog in situations where it can succeed and get the timing right to reward them for that.

It really doesn't matter what the reward actually is, use whatever works, the theory is the same, but if food is what your dog thinks is the best thing in the world they are more likely to respond to it as a reward or a positive association and there's no reason not to use it IF you are getting your timing and management right.

[Simply Grand]

Dbl post

Edited July 3, 2015 by Simply Grand

[Simply Grand]

Thistle, just thought I'd highlight this bit of my long winded post above, in case you don't want to read the whole thing:

Now I have done a whole heap of training with my dogs at off leash dog parks and have had great success BUT their issues and temperaments are suitable for it and I've seen the progress. If they weren't progressing or were going backwards I wouldn't have continued. Thistle, I think your plan sounds good and you have your trainer's help and support which is great. My main warning after years of dog parks is err on the side of caution, take it slow and don't go at busy times, as you've already said you will do. You may well find that you come across some regulars with compatible dogs who can help you with your training down the track Or you may not.

There aren't a whole lot of places one can go to be around dogs/people/children/whatever stimulus you want to work with so I've used dog parks as a resource for that as well as for exercise. I think we just have to be sensible about it, and always keep our dogs' stress levels and progress or lack thereof in that situation at the front of our minds.

Do come back and let us know how you go :)

[Two Best Dogs!]

You need to do what works for you. It sounds like you've got good trainers to guide you and are happy with what you're doing and how Thistle is managing so far. There are always risks but from what you've said you've got a good plan to minimise them as much as possible and I wish you and Thistle every success. If you decide later on that you'd like to chat and get support from other reactive dog owners then you know where we are. :)

The photos you posted of Thistle are gorgeous so even if you don't want to discuss training and behaviour modification on here you're still more than welcome to keeps sharing photos of your beautiful woofer!

Thanks....yeah, it's a bit overwhelming when a lot of it is a bit conflicting or completely contrary to what you're doing that seems to be working. We'll keeping hanging around and of course come running for help the minute something really confusing happens or to ask local questions (only moved here 6 months ago, need to know all those great dog friendly camping or hiking or quiet beaches or even quiet meets with fellow forum goers later down the track!)

i will try to take better pictures that truly show how gorgeous she is!

thanks for the advice given already though, i have read it all and will definately apply some of it later!

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

hi thistle

Good luck with your training.

Some dogs are definitely empaths - they pick up on your feelings. But you can fake happy and pleased to see everybody and your dog will fall for that. At least long enough for you to make a quick get away.

Last resort trick - chuck kibble in the face of the dog you don't want to greet - the super friendly jump all over dog - but that dog will remember you next time... Ie it only works to allow an escape and then you can't return. However - a dog with it's head down sniffing for food is giving "calming signals" to your dog.

I have also chucked kibble on the ground to stop my dog doing the stiff eye stare challenge - head down looks like calming signals to the other dog. But she back chains that. The things my dog will do for food. Every time she does something I don't want I have to think - how am I rewarding that.

A dog that has been attacked or bullied - has good reason to be scared of other dogs - so there's no reason to rush into greetings. That's why I'm not sure the through the fence thing will work but working at a distance from the fence can be great. Just beware of the pea brains who let their dog go to the dog park gate from the outside - off leash.

PS my dog has never lost a dog fight or been seriously injured in one. She's never started one either. She's much more about noise and bluff and escape. Hence me suspecting the back chaining thing more than the fear thing.

Edited July 3, 2015 by Mrs Rusty Bucket

[Simply Grand]

I'd be very careful chucking food around in a group of dogs, you get a resource guarder or god forbid more than one in the group and you could have SERIOUS fights. If you haven't seen a dog switch from sweet and loving to "I will seriously kill you" over food it can be something that doesn't occur to you, but it's really risky.

Like everything else, food needs to be CAREFULLY controlled by you.

[Two Best Dogs!]

Thistle, just thought I'd highlight this bit of my long winded post above, in case you don't want to read the whole thing:

Now I have done a whole heap of training with my dogs at off leash dog parks and have had great success BUT their issues and temperaments are suitable for it and I've seen the progress. If they weren't progressing or were going backwards I wouldn't have continued. Thistle, I think your plan sounds good and you have your trainer's help and support which is great. My main warning after years of dog parks is err on the side of caution, take it slow and don't go at busy times, as you've already said you will do. You may well find that you come across some regulars with compatible dogs who can help you with your training down the track Or you may not.

There aren't a whole lot of places one can go to be around dogs/people/children/whatever stimulus you want to work with so I've used dog parks as a resource for that as well as for exercise. I think we just have to be sensible about it, and always keep our dogs' stress levels and progress or lack thereof in that situation at the front of our minds.

Do come back and let us know how you go :)

Sorry just saw this.

It's ah absolutely bucketing down right now and the forecast isn't promising so we may have to hold up on our test run until next Saturday. Doesn't look like our area clears up until evening and I'm not keen on walking in a strange place in the dark! Looks like it's going to rain during our Sunday classes as well. But the minute after I do test run I'll report back.

Thanks for being so understanding guys :) Thistle has a great reading on me so I fake relaxed a lot when I'm more stressed than she is!

[Shakti]

Hi...I live 2 minutes from Diamond Creek and would be very happy to meet you there anytime that suits. I have a calm sensible 5 year old Newfoundland who basically sniffs and ignores other dogs and a 4 month old puppy who is timid but not at all aggressive. If you want to pm me or reply on here we can set up a time

[ajj_32]

The Diamond Creek dog park does have a smaller section in the park that is enclosed. You do have to walk through the main dog park section to get to it so not sure if that would work for your fur baby. But I think it's a really nice dog park:)

Good luck

[Two Best Dogs!]

Hey were are back! Thought we'd leave a review (even though we didn't get to walk with Shatki this time)

First, let me restate I will never take Thistle IN TO a dog park. Too risky

(unless we could like hire it to ourselves and some previously approved dogs...)

However if you have a nice well adjusted dog, a visit on a quiet time could probably go well. We were in the area for 2 hours and the dog population in the park at the main entry varied from around 20 dogs to just 2 dogs.

There was one really stupid lady, upon my arrival, who was scattering dog treats around at her feet for any random dog. As expected, a fight broke out between two dogs. It wasn't a serious one and they were broken up quickly by one of the owners but seriously, who throws food around strange dogs? Pegged the owner as someone to avoid forever. (and this is why we will never ever evveer go in a dog park)

Anyway, what we did was hang around 2 metres from the fence, get rewarded for good behaviour (sniffing, sitting, chilling, shaking, anything relaxing like) and making sure she didn't look at any one dog for more than 3 seconds. (Only had the two dogs at separate times come over to inspect us. I treated it like our dog classes, Thistle can sniff air from her 2 metre distance for about 2-3 seconds, then I recall and walk away. She did well, she only gave one "GO AWAY" woof the whole time. Did get to chat to owner of dog she woofed at later on because of course ppl are curious about our literal line in the dirt :p they were understanding)

(Safety note, if any of the dogs in the park looked like they were going to get worked up over Thistle, I'd walk away and come back when they were gone. Since some dogs are weird about fences and I didn't want to upset them)

ANYWAY we only would be at the fence line for a couple of minutes then we'd walk off to this nifty upper field area for about 15 mins? Seems there's random fencing everywhere so no-one can really just run up to you. We did some training there, I'll bring the long lead next time and we can do some games like fetch and 101 boxes and recall. Then back for a couple of minutes at the fence line, then back for 15 mins play.

There was another person with a reactive dog who was doing what I was doing - walking her past the fenceline at a distance, rewarding good behaviour type stuff. He used the upper field as well but we got a good rotation going on. Was also baffled by an offlead (friendly) beagle who came out on one side of the bushes in the paddock, neatly crossed the paddock while checking us out and then kept on going. no obvious owner but he had some tags on and well can't grab him when Thistle is with me so fingers crossed he knew where he was going. Neither of us were worried cause he had full relaxed body and wasn't turning towards us.

Definitely going back there for her walks in general, WAY more interesting than Darebin Creek. I also found a gate with a path that leads down to the Diamond Creek? But another people with their excited retriever were down there and I didn't want to push Thistle. Another time maybe.

(We got a waggy tail and open mouth, even with the other reactive dog barking away about 8 metres off screen)

(Not so happy that I didn't let her go in the puddle :C )

I'm beat now, acting all confident and relaxed for Thistle while watching everything like a hawk is exhausting.

Another major downside, there's very few bins outside the dog park and dog poop all over the place. I didn't see one and I told her to sit and she sat in it and now there's dog poop in my car ;__________;

Edited July 18, 2015 by Thistle the dog