Puppy Just Won't Drop - Some Suggestions Please

[wonder]

Hoping some of you can suggest some variations on technique for a silly struggle I'm having. I've got a 5 month old, super smart, super sparkly and smart little mini schnauzer, Maya, she is an absolute delight. I also have a very well trained (by me attending obedience and agility and at home training) 2.5 year old mini schnauzer. My parents used to be professional dog trainers. I don't pretend to know it all, I love to learn, and I love to have fun with my dogs, but I do believe that I'm pretty level headed, well informed, do my research and know a little more than average Joe on the street.

So here's my silly struggle - Maya just won't drop. I've tried the leading of nose down chest along floor, with/without guidance over bum, tried under bent knee (she's happy to crawl around), but just can't get her to drop properly.

She gets ridiculously excited if I have treats of any kind, I've tried with/without treats.

She's smart as a button with all other things, sits super quickly and eagerly, dances, prances, stands, does tricks, waits (and drools) for her food until given a command, and will quite happily lounge on us on the sofa. Just no dropping on command or with guidance.

Would love some other techniques to try. The dog trainers at obedience school always confidently take her from me thinking that they'll get her right, and none of their techniques have worked either. They just give her up and tell me to keep trying and practicing.

I haven't tried clicker training - clicker on order, so that's one avenue not yet explored.

Would love to hear some ideas, tips and tricks! By the way, this is 8 weeks of attempts. Everything else she picks up immediately.

[The Spotted Devil]

You can either lure it as you are doing AND reward for incremental improvement (I have done this with lots of dogs and it works really well as long as you break it down enough) or you can also try capturing the behaviour when your dog chooses to lie down. Use a verbal marker or clicker for the latter and treat!

[Diva]

Like Spotted Devil suggests I would capture it. Wait until she drops going about her day today business, add the cue as she goes down and reward. Needs reasonable attention on your part but not otherwise hard.

[huski]

Could you post a video for us to show us what you are trying to do?

I train a fold back down, so I don't train the down from a sit, I train it from a stand often as the pup is on the move. Push the treat down and sort of into their chest area so they drop their head, and push backwards. Sometimes it helps to put your hand on their back and gently push them down, then as they hit the floor, release the food.

If I really want the positions to be sharp and precise I train them in a control box which can also help with the pup learning to down neatly.

Edited June 18, 2015 by huski

[persephone]

I was going to suggest use a table - so pup is well off the ground, and you can be more comfortable in placing treats/manoeuvring pup.

[Better Late]

Clicker training should help, although I use verbal markers. One and the same really. If its taken eight weeks she really might not understand what you want her to do, maybe check out a few videos of Kikopup on youtube to get more of an idea of how to train it. She's been a big help to me and my boofer.

I trained a down the same way as huski, from a standing position, so its more of a fold back and down rather than a slide the front end down, it looks sharper that way. I moved the treat down and back towards her chest area so she had to fold back to follow the direction of the treat, once her elbows hit the floor marked it with a yes!! and treated.

Its also easier to train the 'stand' from this position once you've mastered the down I've found. I'm only six months into it (first dog ever!) so I know it can be tough! Patience, consistency and persistence will pay off, keep us updated :D

[Tassie]

All of the above ... but I would add (from experience with helping handlers in a puppy class at dog club), one of the keys seems to be timing - going slowly at first ... waiting the dog out, while at the same time, as TSD says, being prepared to reward approximations/darned good tries'. I like to use delicious, lickable treats - puppy can lick but not get the whole treat until criteria are met (whatever they are for that stage .. eg, if training down from stand, I will sometimes reward elbow bend as the first stage.

Best trained at first when pup is tired already.

Kikopup (Emily Larlham) on Youtube has some clips that might be useful.

[Dave-o]

I've had similar problems (my pup is almost 5 months).

Mine would get too excited about the treats in this instance, and pushing the treat down would cause him to jump back and stand. Resting my hand on his back has helped, and also doing it without the treat and tickling his belly afterwards as a reward. It's much easier when he's tired after a walk. He's getting there, I think...

[Diana R]

As above my first thought was capture too, but to add on to the 'break it down' advice already given, the steps I normally use are something like (all steps start with 'keep bum on floor))

- look at floor in front of feet

- look with tucked chin (sometimes this is first)

- stretch neck down (no give in elbows)

- stretch neck down (with give in elbows)

- stretch and touch floor with nose

- follow treat forward until slight give in wrists

- follow treat forward to a drop (with hand rotation)

The trick to getting the last two steps consistently with dogs that pop their bums up, is to rotate the treat under your hand so that the dog has to keep their chin on the floor to be able to lick it. Hard to explain rather than show, but if you are holding the treat with your index and middle fingers against your thumb (with your fingers straight), as you start to draw it forward, rotate the treat down (so palm is facing the ground) and use the thumb side of your index finger and hand to hang over the top of treat and prevent the dog from licking it from above. Usually I don't keep drawing them forward at this stage, I just wait them out until they drop as they are already bent through the elbows and it's hard for them to hold that position for long.

Hope this makes sense!!

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I got a drop with a friends dog by luring... the dog was tall and gangly like a greyhound and didn't like dropping much ie didn't do it if there was any action at all.. but he was very good at sit but as soon as I tried to lure his nose down his chest for a drop, his bum would pop into the air and he'd bow instead - maybe should have captured that because I can't get my dog to do it on cue...

what worked was ... lure under my knees. Cos he was a tall dog - I sat on the edge of a chair and lured him between the chair and my calves... which got him into a drop which I was able to mark and praise... got a few drops that way.

with a smaller dog - I think I'd sit on the floor and make a triangle with my knees up and lure through...

but as soon as you've got five repeats with luring - start adding the word and fading the lure...

If you've done lots of shaping and capturing behaviours - usually only need to lure once or twice and then the dog has a clue what to try for the reward...