Co Owning?

[belly82]

Hi we have been researching for some time now a particular breed of pup to join our family.

Randomly checking out the puppy notices on DOGZONLINE I saw breeder notices for mature dogs. Since we have 4 kids ranging from 2yo to 9yo we are happy to consider a adult dog as temperament is very important for my kids etc...

Shot off an email to one of the breeders and he got back to me letting me know that he had to sell his property and needed to rent so that meant he couldn't take all his dogs with him so he needed to down size... He has a young male and and older female. He was offering them both for free (to a good home obviously) - the male was under the condition that he would be able l gave access to him to continue showing him a few times a year?? Possibly use him from stud??? (Sorry if my terminology is incorrect as we are only after a family pet) - we dont mind as we have no interest in showing or breeding we just want a fantastic family dog to adopt.

If we considered the male what kind of contract / agreement should be made??? I have no idea... I just don't want to lose him later on if the breeder still technically owns him etc?? The female is much older and he just wants her to go to a loving home...same as the boy but had he's still young and won stuff already he was hoping to continue showing him when he can (he's still keeping some females with him) but if we didn't want to let him have access he would sell him to us with full papers etc

I hope I make sense...sorry if i don't!!!

Any advice/comments would be greatly appreciated.

[Dogs Are Forever]

I would say don't do it. Have seen too many co-ownership agreements come unstuck, and sometimes it can get really nasty. Have you thought about getting a rescue dog if there is an organisation associated with your chosen breed?

Also, if you agreed to allow the dog to be used at stud, what happens if you decide you would like to desex him? And the shows, would they be local ones? Otherwise your dog could be away for quite a while, there are a lot of shows in the country which take place over a number of days....... If it were my dog, I would be beside myself with worry.

Hope this is of some little help to you.

Hi we have been researching for some time now a particular breed of pup to join our family.

Randomly checking out the puppy notices on DOGZONLINE I saw breeder notices for mature dogs. Since we have 4 kids ranging from 2yo to 9yo we are happy to consider a adult dog as temperament is very important for my kids etc...

Shot off an email to one of the breeders and he got back to me letting me know that he had to sell his property and needed to rent so that meant he couldn't take all his dogs with him so he needed to down size... He has a young male and and older female. He was offering them both for free (to a good home obviously) - the male was under the condition that he would be able l gave access to him to continue showing him a few times a year?? Possibly use him from stud??? (Sorry if my terminology is incorrect as we are only after a family pet) - we dont mind as we have no interest in showing or breeding we just want a fantastic family dog to adopt.

If we considered the male what kind of contract / agreement should be made??? I have no idea... I just don't want to lose him later on if the breeder still technically owns him etc?? The female is much older and he just wants her to go to a loving home...same as the boy but had he's still young and won stuff already he was hoping to continue showing him when he can (he's still keeping some females with him) but if we didn't want to let him have access he would sell him to us with full papers etc

I hope I make sense...sorry if i don't!!!

Any advice/comments would be greatly appreciated.

[Jumabaar]

I sold a male that I was lucky enough to borrow to show occasionally. I picked him up in the morning and dropped him off in the afternoon. He loved all the attention.

My plan was to get semen so if necessary he could be desexed when the owner wanted to. Unfortunately health problems made the whole situation moot. But I was grateful that I found someone who was willing to support my desire to produce happy amazing companions in the next generation. I also wasn't in the position to keep a male at that time.

I suggest asking questions and seeing if the breeder could store semen if you are doubtful of keeping him entire.

These can be difficult but at the same time this can be an opportunity for a breeder to create healthy, well built puppies in the future so I can understand them at least bringing up this option with you. You can have anything you want in the contract i.e. that you can desex after 6mths if you are finding having an entire dog or that he can only go to local shows. You might even find it a fun day out with the family to take him to the shows yourself and let the breeder do the actual showing. I know of a few families who have done this and their children have had the opportunity to learn to show their dog and enter junior handler competitions. They are also allowed to be shown as neuters so if you did desex in the future it is something you/your children could continue to enjoy as a fun outing.

[Willowlane]

With regard to being away with shows, we are going away this weekend and will be away for 4days and it will take us 6.5hrs on the road to get there but there are some competition runs you can do which have you away for 2-3weeks...I saw one that has you out western NSW around Condobolin/Parkes that looked to run for 2weeks+

Also most shows dont have neuter classes from what Iv'e seen or only a few do so desexing wouldn't be an option especially if he intends to use the dog for breeding still and a non-desexed male dog can at times be a lot more boisterous/dominating than a desexed dog from my experience.

I cant help with anything else as im just a newbie to showing myself but just something to think about

[Jumabaar]

Neuter classes are gaining lots more popularity- particularly in NSW.

And please talk to your breeder about what shows they are talking about because while weeks away is possible that may not (probably not) be what your breeder wants to do!

[MonElite]

get an agreement, read it and understand it.

Its doable but beware of conditions and have everything spelled out up front.

I'm a breeder and I have few dogs on coownership - just like this boy is offered. But before the dog went to a new home the owners were given an agreement to consider and plenty of time to research if they want to go into it.

So far no complains from anyone, they are all very happy with how we have it.

[belly82]

Does co own mean both our names are registered as owners?? Can we own him and he just shows / uses his sperm??

Sorry just need to get my head around it all so I know what to ask for in an agreement

[Sandra777]

I am looking from the point of view of the breeder/owner in this case and personally I'm not a fan of placing dogs in pet homes when I want to show them.

As someone else has already mentioned - going away to shows can be a 5 or 6 day expedition, which is hardly fair on the family (especially when there's children) and not really fair on the dog either as he will no doubt get used to being an only child :laugh: and stress or fuss about being taken away from what he knows.

In addition, and this depends on breed of course, even the best pet owners in the world rarely understand what show condition means, which makes it very hard to get the dog into the best shape to be truly competitive.

As far as "pet homing" a stud dog, well that's not quite as complex, so long as you very clearly understand how many times the dog will be used, WHERE this will all take place, who gets the stud fee and what happens if the pet owners decide they don't want to keep an entire male any more.

Belly82 - you need to confirm how many and what sort of shows the breeder would like to take this dog to. Who is responsible for getting the dog there? How much notice will you get of when he wants to take the dog to a show? Who is responsible for ensuring the dog is in show condition (as mentioned above, this is not something many pet people understand)? Is this a coated breed - that is a mine field all of it's own!

If he uses the dog at stud, where will this occur (your place, his place, somewhere else). Who gets the stud fee if it is an outside bitch (this means, not owned by the person you are getting the dog from). If it's his bitch, will he be paying you something for keeping the dog for him so he can use it "for free". I don't mean to make it sound like you are only interested in the money, but if the dog is a from a breed which sells for a fair bit and the current owner uses him two or three times without having to pay for his upkeep and without having to pay any stud fee at all then this is when resentment can set in even for the nicest person. Once or twice would be reasonable to me, more than that not.

Honestly, I think the breeder would be better off getting the dog collected (frozen semen) then neutering the dog and selling it to you outright as a pet.

[Dame Aussie]

I wouldn't do it. It can definitely work but gets complicated.

[Heidley]

It can work, but I really think more questions regarding the showing aspect need to be asked, is he wanting to get the dog titled? Is he looking at shows which are local so the dog will only be away for the day? If he want the dog titled first he could consider semen collection and desexing afterwards.

Co owned means your names and the breeders. If he wants to show him and breed from him, co-ownership is the best way to facilitate this. If the dog is all in your name then it becomes difficult with studs etc. I'd ask for clarification and a copy of any agreement before going any further.

It can work if both parties agree to the terms and communication is open.

[Salukifan]

Co-ownership of an entire male pet dog that is exhibited and used at stud has some practical implications for the pet owner:

1. You will have to become a member of your Canine Control - now and every year. All owners of exhibited dogs must be financial members.

2. The dog will need to be away from you to attend shows, and unless you sign up for it, for stud duty.Most of that away time will be weekends - you know that time when you get to actually see your dog during the day! You don't always get a lot of notice about stud work and it can be damn inconvenient to accomodate the timing of matings.

3. You will need to pay a higher fee to register the dog with council.

4. You need to think through carefully who will pay for the dog's upkeep, vet expenses, show entries and incidentals and who gets to keep the dogs winnings, ribbons, trophies and stud fees.

5. Entire male dogs can come with a few behavioural issues that make them more demanding pets than others. You can probably rule out trips to the dog park forever.

6. What happens to ownership of the dog and who determines whether or not he stays entire when his show career is over?

6. All arrangements need to be discussed, agreed and recorded in an agreement.

For a pet owner with no interest in showing themselves? My honest advice is DON'T. I have a show dog in co-ownership. It's a perfectly amicable agreement but it is more complex than every being able to make a decision about your dog yourself.

There will be other dogs that can be yours entirely with none of these complications. I suggest that patience will pay off in the end. I'm sure the wait will be shorter than the 10+ years a co-ownership agreement might be in force.

Edited June 17, 2015 by Haredown Whippets

[persephone]

IF you are doing this to get a 'free' dog .... you may be in for much more than you bargained ;)

As I know not a big deal of showing , etc ... No way would I seek care of someone's dog .The worry of keeping it healthy, fit, and , yes, in "show condition' would take away a lot of my enjoyment .

I would also worry about dogs escaping /having accidents , etc .

That's just my view - best of luck ,whatever your choice ..

[Rebanne]

Does co own mean both our names are registered as owners?? Can we own him and he just shows / uses his sperm??

Sorry just need to get my head around it all so I know what to ask for in an agreement

To have your name on his papers you would need to join your states Canine body. Personally I don't see why the breeder doesn't just collect the dog and freeze the semen.

[alpha bet]

Meet with the guy... talk out an arrangement and see if you both feel comfortable.... then put an agreement in writing.... a fair agreement means it is fair to both parties.

Breeders Terms, Co-Ownership can be a great advantage to all concerned as long as you map out stuff so that everyone understands.

As a rule of thumb we say that the family own the physical dog however the breeder owns the showing breeding rights.

Costs involved in owning a pet are the responsibility of the family but anything regarding breeding and showing is the cost of the breeder.

It is also a good idea to have a time frame placed on the Agreement - hence you might say by the time the dog is say 5-6 years old the breeder will sign the dog over to your full ownership. By that age the breeder is likely to have finished the show career and can then decide if they want to have semen frozen for future use. So the family can desex the dog if they wish.

Don't be put off discussing the idea.

[Stressmagnet]

My sister still co-owns her first dog. It was a way for her to get into showing way back when, and she's been able to start her own prefix and keep a great pup from subsequent litters for her own kennel.

It's not necessarily a bad arrangement if you want to get into showing or breeding but I'm not sure what the real advantage is for someone who doesn't. Just having a pretty dog isn't enough.

When I got Ernie, he had been earmarked for showing before the breeder went through an awful divorce and simply couldn't afford the time and money to get him off the ground. So with my permission, she collected semen from him and I desexed him. While he's never been a champion due to my supreme lack of interest showing him - his bloodlines are stellar and his temperament were what she wanted to use later on. (She breeds a lot of guide dogs). I'm fine with that - she got what she wanted, I got Ernie the Idiot - everyone is happy.

Edited June 17, 2015 by Stressmagnet

[Steph M]

Lots of.councils charge a fortune to register an entire dog, be worth factoring that in as well.

And considering grooming requirements (not sure of breed) and whether the owner wants him fed a certain way, what training you'd have to put in (keeping an entire dog can be much different to a desexed one in some breeds and cases) and if your family can keep up with the standards this guy would like, all things need to be discussed with him. ;)

[MonElite]

Council rego for an entire dog is about $120 for life, $40 for a desexed one.

Over the dogs life its not really a fortune.

Dog being an adult is most likely already registered with the council so transfer will be free

[Steph M]

Council rego for an entire dog is about $120 for life, $40 for a desexed one.

Over the dogs life its not really a fortune.

Dog being an adult is most likely already registered with the council so transfer will be free

Our council must be jerks then! We pay yearly $46 for a desexed dog, $138 for an entire dog. Ouch!

I imagine the transfer would cover the first year in our council, but no idea what the fee is. Our council sucks by comparison! Haha.

[Dame Aussie]

Yeah in Vic its a yearly fee and can be into the hundreds.

[JessicaM]

I was lucky enough to sell a bitch on breeders terms to one of my friends, she already has one bitch the same breed and wanted another to keep as company. I occasionally take her to shows and I get 1 litter from her when I decide. It works pretty well, no problems and we are both happy. It can work, this bitch isn't co-owned she is registered in my name still (but I have no intention of taking her away) after her litter, I sign her over to her new owner and she will be desexed (new owners wish)