Loose Teeth - Urgent Advice Needed

[osusoy]

Hi all,

We have a dental problem with my little pap Manix and I really don't trust the vet's explanation and suggested treatment. At the same time, I don't want him to be in discomfort if the vet is correct:

Basically, during his last vaccination few days ago, the vet pointed out some loose teeth but couldn't give me a satisfactory explanation as to why they are that way. Although a couple of them have some plaque buildup, they are not broken, cracked or rotten. One of them doesn't even have any plaque on it, just loose?!

Vet's explanation was simply "this just happens with small dogs" (Manix' healthy adult weight is around 2kg) and that the only option is to extract them! Initially I was too busy with guilt - i do feed him a mix of wet food and 2 types of kibble, both designed to clean teeth but we should start brushing daily! - and just said yes to treatment without thinking too much about it. Now that I have had a couple of days to think about it, it doesn't make much sense to me. If those teeth are healthy but loose, surely that must be a gum problem of some sort? At the same time, his gums seem fine too (he is perfectly healthy other than these loose teeth).

Manix is only 4y.o. and they are talking about extracting a few teeth (at least 3), I am having great problem accepting that these otherwise healthy teeth need extractions at such a young age. At the same time, if the vet is correct and Manix is in discomfort and the teeth can't be saved, I wouldn't want to delay the extractions. how do you tell? he's always a happy dog and me touching those loose teeth doesn't generate any pain like reaction (He actually doesn't even seem to mind me doing it so I've started rubbing his teeth daily to slowly get him used to having his teeth brushed).

I am really worried and lost over this Any advice would be very much appreciated by both Manix and I.

Note: I've already decided that I will cancel the operation and ask to see the senior vet at the practice first but to be honest, I would trust advice from here over any vet.

[Pjrt]

Personally I would have the teeth out. Loose teeth will never suddenly become 'unloose', and while they are moving in the gum there is a high chance they will become more loose and open the gum line to infection. There is no magic way of saving lose teeth and I wouldn't wont to be trying to munch down on hard biscuits and have my teeth moving about! Dogs can function perfectly well with some teeth missing, perhaps even better without wonky ones.

[ness]

What about seeking out a dental vet specialist if your concerned? Dr Christine Hawke was really helpful when I spoke with her to discuss a dental issue. While she is located in Sydney she may be able to recommend somebody in Victoria for you.

http://www.sydneypet...out-us-2/staff/

Not sure about this but you could try here:

http://www.hallamvet.com.au/Staff.aspx

Edited June 13, 2015 by ness

[Dogsfevr]

Toys breeds do have a higher incidence of dental issues & its often diet related as everyone feeds them little things & make it easier for them.

If there loose they need to come out ,they will fallout themselves & just because you think the dog isn't showing signs doesn't mean it isn't ,it will be eating differently to adapt to what it can/can't do with those teeth .

[cavNrott]

Dr Steven Coles at Sandringham Vet Clinic/Hospital is a dental specialist.

I would have those loose teeth extracted. Loose teeth can be caused by gum disease. If the teeth are loose they're not healthy teeth and gum disease threatens the health of your dog's heart. Teeth don't have to be broken, cracked or rotten to cause gum disease and as you said, there is plaque present on all but one of the loose teeth. I think your vet has given you sound advice.

Brushing daily at this point will not save the loose teeth.

[osusoy]

Personally I would have the teeth out. Loose teeth will never suddenly become 'unloose', and while they are moving in the gum there is a high chance they will become more loose and open the gum line to infection. There is no magic way of saving lose teeth and I wouldn't wont to be trying to munch down on hard biscuits and have my teeth moving about! Dogs can function perfectly well with some teeth missing, perhaps even better without wonky ones.

Toys breeds do have a higher incidence of dental issues & its often diet related as everyone feeds them little things & make it easier for them.

If there loose they need to come out ,they will fallout themselves & just because you think the dog isn't showing signs doesn't mean it isn't ,it will be eating differently to adapt to what it can/can't do with those teeth .

Thanks GrufLife and showdog, those help towards the most important aspect of my question; whether there is a non-magical way to fix them. I know that if I go to my dentist with a problem tooth, he will try everything possible to save that tooth but sometimes they do have to come out as a last resort. I am simply worried that the vet might be skipping that "try everything possible to save that tooth" part and jumping to last resort. With the kibble, I am feeding him 2 types, one designed for small dogs and one for larger dogs (someone told me that the bigger ones might be more effective) and they both claim to be designed to keep his teeth clean..and he knows he has to finish them all. We also use a water additive that is also supposed to help with his teeth. Since we ended up this situation regardless, I guess brushing is mandatory from now on.

What about seeking out a dental vet specialist if your concerned? Dr Christine Hawke was really helpful when I spoke with her to discuss a dental issue. While she is located in Sydney she may be able to recommend somebody in Victoria for you.

http://www.sydneypet...out-us-2/staff/

Not sure about this but you could try here:

http://www.hallamvet.com.au/Staff.aspx

That is brilliant Ness, thank you very much! I am not sure about trying another practice as the senior vet at mine is considered one of the best small animal surgeons in Australia, I just didn't specify last time as we were just going in for vaccinations and ended up seeing one of the other vets there who I don't trust as much. Dr Christine Hawke is a great lead though, I'll be contacting her as well but I just checked her site and there was a plausible explanation as to why we might be in this situation; bones! I always thought they were good for his teeth so he does get them but considering how tiny he is, maybe trying to chew on them is putting too much strain on his teeth as she suggests.

Lack of any explanations as to why this has happened is the most disturbing part for me; if i don't know what caused the problem, how can i prevent him from losing more next year? The biggest irony is that we had to extract some of his puppy teeth because they wouldn't fall off naturally and now we need to extract the ones that are supposed to stay in

Thanks to all again for your advice :)

[osusoy]

Dr Steven Coles at Sandringham Vet Clinic/Hospital is a dental specialist.

I would have those loose teeth extracted. Loose teeth can be caused by gum disease. If the teeth are loose they're not healthy teeth and gum disease threatens the health of your dog's heart. Teeth don't have to be broken, cracked or rotten to cause gum disease and as you said, there is plaque present on all but one of the loose teeth. I think your vet has given you sound advice.

Brushing daily at this point will not save the loose teeth.

Thanks cavNrott, i'll add him to Manix' health list. If we have further dental issues, I will want to take him to a specialist. However there seems to be an agreement in the responses I am getting here that if they are loose, they can't be saved and they need to come out. I'll still consult the senior vet just to see what he has to say about all this but it sounds like i shouldn't cancel the operation and create delays with that.

Thank you all again for all your responses. I still need to look into what might have caused this but at least I feel a lot more confident about the decision to have them extracted being the right one.

[Rascalmyshadow]

Just because the teeth look healthy doesnt mean they are, there is a risk of abscess and sometimes the vet can't tell until the tooth is being cleaned/removed.

I would not hesitate in having them removed it will not cause any problems for your dog, both my chi and my chi x pom have had teeth removed and they are both under four.

The problem is often genetic and it doesn't matter what you feed them it will still happen.

Often people don't realise the risks involved in having bad teeth, if left too long it can cause problems with all the vital organs and (something I have now seen 3 times) can also cause meningitis leading to death.

[Pjrt]

Small dogs are prone to loose teeth. Often the tiny ones at the front, the incisor teeth, go first.

I also just noted that you had retained puppy teeth removed. Another common issue for tiny dogs. At what age did you have them removed, and which ones?? I wonder if there is a chance that the retention of the puppy teeth has caused the gums to have a bit more give (for want of a more technical explanation!) around the subsequent adult teeth. I don't know this for a fact, just thinking out loud something you might ask the vet.

[Steph M]

I'd have them out too, and most dogs cope just fine with a few less! I've met dogs with no teeth who are quite happy! :)

[Pjrt]

I'd have them out too, and most dogs cope just fine with a few less! I've met dogs with no teeth who are quite happy! :)

I have been 'bitten' by a few dogs with no teeth at all, and they can still pack a punch believe me!

And yes, they are better off with no teeth at all than a mouth full of rotten, loose, painful ones.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

Never compromise on dental health, bad/loose teeth need to come out, no matter what the age.

I have been rescuing small dogs for years and toy breeds (as others have indicated) often suffer from poor dentitian, no matter what the owners feed the dogs.

As an example, I rescue Italian Greyhounds amongst other dogs, if they are over 3 yrs of age, they pretty much all need a dental and some need extractions.

In 2009 I rescued a male Italian aged 5 who had not had any dental treatment in his life, his teeth were rotting in his head and unfortunately for me I got him too late. During the urgent surgery to remove his rotten teeth - all of them - his jaw crumbled from the untreated infection and my vet had to put him to sleep whilst under anaesthetic.

Apart from the terrible stench when he arrived and the severe pain he was in, he also had what appeared to be pus coming out of his eyes and his ears were extremely painful. Toy dogs only have tiny frames so the infection can become widespread if you don't keep their teeth in good condition.

Edited June 14, 2015 by Her Majesty Dogmad

[osusoy]

Thanks for the new responses, i feel much more comfortable about the extractions now :) I have had dogs all my life but never had a dog that had this problem. I also never had loose teeth myself so had no idea they aren't treatable (there seems to be some options for humans but they sound pretty traumatic for a small dog). But, I have also never had a dog this small either. I don't know if the breeder could tell he would end up half sized (supposed to be a reputable breeder I found here and Manix' papers show that he comes from a long line of full size pure-breeds) but he is my kid now so that is kind of irrelevant. In a way I am sort of hoping they will find a little bit of infection (vet couldn't tell as the gums seem healthy from the outside) as that seems treatable to prevent future tooth loss whereas teeth getting loose for no reason is harder to understand and safeguard against.

Small dogs are prone to loose teeth. Often the tiny ones at the front, the incisor teeth, go first.

I also just noted that you had retained puppy teeth removed. Another common issue for tiny dogs. At what age did you have them removed, and which ones?? I wonder if there is a chance that the retention of the puppy teeth has caused the gums to have a bit more give (for want of a more technical explanation!) around the subsequent adult teeth. I don't know this for a fact, just thinking out loud something you might ask the vet.

yes, he will be losing one incisor (the tooth with no plaque at all) but the other 2 are the last premolars (some plaque on those). i can guess the incisor might be due to the way he carries larger balls (by hooking his teeth to loose material on the ball - usually with his canines but sometimes he does use his incisors for it) so I might make the bigger and heavier balls disappear. but, unless they are infected, i have no idea why the premolars got loose (although the suggestion by Dr Christine Hawke as recommended by Ness that it might be due to crunching too hard on bones makes some sense so i might stop giving him bones and find him softer things to chew on).

i also need to pay more attention to how the vet looks at the back teeth, his mouth is tiny so I find it near impossible to inspect the ones right at the back (can reach with my finger though so we should be ok to brush them after manix recovers from surgery). with puppy teeth, it was his canines; the puppy ones were like tiny fishbones so the adult ones couldn't push them out and had the risk of coming out crooked. From what I can remember, I think he was around 6 months when we did that. Can general anesthetic stunt his growth? bit late now but why he only grew to half size is another mystery; adult male paps are suppose to be 4-4.5 kg, manix is 2 kg and the vet says that is the health weight for him (right amount of muscle and fat for his frame). I am starting to understand why i don't see that many paps around, they have brilliant personalities but the whole being very tiny thing isn't helping with health issues :/

[Rappie]

If the teeth are loose then extraction is the best option. Although the teeth themselves may be healthy, there is not much that can be done if the periodontal attachment has been lost. It is unfortunately very common in small breeds and it's not always easy to identify an underlying problem - there is less surrounding tissue, less root to be held in, sometimes particularly in small white fluffy breeds there can be an abnormal inflammatory response. If it is possible, then dental radiographs at the time you get the procedure done would be ideal to identify any other issues with other teeth that can perhaps be dealt with pre-emptively. Unfortunately once there is root exposure and gingival pocketing involved with a loose tooth, they will just serve as a place to accumulate food particles, plaque, tartar and bacteria and serve to lead to further deterioration. Although we do try to save the larger teeth like canines and carnassial teeth, this is sometimes only plausible with meticulous home care and from the point of view of removing a source of pain and discomfort extraction is sometimes the better option. For fractured or damaged teeth with otherwise healthy attachments, veterinary dentists can use procedures like root canals to save teeth. Apart from some cosmetic issues such as protruding tongues and wayward dribble, most dogs that have full mouth extractions cope extremely well.

[osusoy]

If the teeth are loose then extraction is the best option. Although the teeth themselves may be healthy, there is not much that can be done if the periodontal attachment has been lost. It is unfortunately very common in small breeds and it's not always easy to identify an underlying problem - there is less surrounding tissue, less root to be held in, sometimes particularly in small white fluffy breeds there can be an abnormal inflammatory response. If it is possible, then dental radiographs at the time you get the procedure done would be ideal to identify any other issues with other teeth that can perhaps be dealt with pre-emptively. Unfortunately once there is root exposure and gingival pocketing involved with a loose tooth, they will just serve as a place to accumulate food particles, plaque, tartar and bacteria and serve to lead to further deterioration. Although we do try to save the larger teeth like canines and carnassial teeth, this is sometimes only plausible with meticulous home care and from the point of view of removing a source of pain and discomfort extraction is sometimes the better option. For fractured or damaged teeth with otherwise healthy attachments, veterinary dentists can use procedures like root canals to save teeth. Apart from some cosmetic issues such as protruding tongues and wayward dribble, most dogs that have full mouth extractions cope extremely well.

Thanks Rappie, great advice and I will definitely request the dental radiographs to be done now if they don't already have it planned. It is great to have another vet confirm everyone's opinions too :) It is still sad to see him lose his teeth but if that is what has to be done for him to be healthy and pain free, that is what will be done.

I'll still try to see the senior vet (Dr Steve Pryor if you know him) before surgery as there has been cases in the past with my previous dogs where he found operations suggested by other vets as unnecessary (and offered alternative treatments that worked) whereas the vet i have seen this time seems to start every sentence with "lets operate" regardless of the problem. Also, when my last dog got cancer, Dr Pryor sent samples to many cancer specialists in australia before deciding on treatment while others wanted to just jump in and operate without that information. Needless to say, I have a lot more trust in his decisions.

Thank you again for your input :)

[Rascalmyshadow]

What bones are you giving him? Four of my five dogs are under 4kg my chi 1.8kg I've found the most suitable bones are chicken wing tips, perfect size and not too hard.

[osusoy]

What bones are you giving him? Four of my five dogs are under 4kg my chi 1.8kg I've found the most suitable bones are chicken wing tips, perfect size and not too hard.

This is why i get stressed about everything. Someone told me chiken bone splinters more easily and more dangerous as a result so I have never tried chicken bones. If they are actually safe (which i assume is the case if you've been doing this for a while and with multiple dogs), they would make a good alternative. Currently, if I am buying just for him, I get osso buco with the marrow rich bone, remove the meat and give him the meat cooked and the bone raw. If we're sharing, he gets (raw) rib bones; either from lamb chops or rib eye steak (i buy them with the bone on just for this purpose). Before I lost my other dog, lamb necks were also part of the routine as supposedly they are better at cleaning his canines but can't do that anymore as manix isn't strong enough to deal with them; my shih tzu used to strip the hard parts and leave manix all the sinew to clean his teeth with. he does need a bigger companion in his life again.

Do you give the wing tips raw or cooked?

[Alibi]

Chicken necks and wings are great for small dogs! Always raw as they only splinter when cooked. My little dog gets chicken wings, chicken necks and lamb brisket/flaps bones a few times a week.

[Alibi]

I would go the whole wing if he would eat it as it's a good workout, bigger and less chance of being swolled whole.

[The Spotted Devil]

Not a small breed but I've just switched my 7 week old ESS pups from necks to wings/quartered frames. Little rascals were giving the necks one crunch then swallowing them. I will leave the cats to eat the necks!