Help With Staffy Puppy Diet & Allergy

[Jorgo]

hi guys, my friend suggested i come here and ask the masterminds here.

and i appologise in advance its going to be long ( and i spell horribly when typing ;) ) as i want to put all the info i can remmeber/ corelate in one post.

I have a 19w female english staffy pup with fairly severe allergies.

alot of them food related and im struggling with diet/ nutrent uptake? and was looking for some help on what an " appropriate" sized meal based on her age/ size / diet requirements.

we bought molly home at just over 7w. shes not got papers. both parents look healthy and had great personalities calm and friendly. we spent over an hour with them. the owners answered no at the question of any health issues or problems. they sent us home with a little baggy of the biscits she was already eating ( hills science diet)

fairly soon (8w4days)we had some issues with vomiting and explosive diarrhea that would not stop .

we rushed her to the emergency vet. they were worried about and tested for pavo. all negative. they watched her and gave her some meds overnight to stop vomiting and released her the next evening with a "probably just a tummy virus, we cant find anything, here feed her some hills science diet puppy can food to go with the hills puppy biscuits"

the she was a little down fr the next 32 hrs or so but perked up and continued on with occasional sloppy poops now and then

we had initially decided that we were going to give lots of quality and store brand and style varied diet with cans ,loaf, homemade, biscuits, and raw. primarliy to prevent severe pickiness. and to give a variety of options.

we continued giving her different brands of puppy foods and i made homemade mix with chicken or meats with vegies and rice all cooked together.

she didnt seem to be eating much to us. didnt seem enough but wasnt really interested. also seemed a bit " uncoordinated" when eating half chewing then spitting out then finishing off.

at 9w 3days she went for her 9 week vax, which she had, and the vet noticed her teeth were not closing aligned and were causing pain to gums. vet recommended they were removed as soon as possible before they abcess. two days later ( friday) lower canine baby teeth were removed and just in time as it was noted the top gums they were impacting were starting to abcess. she was also neutered at this time.

3 days later she as very perky and eating much more and happily. obviously the teeth were bothering her she was back up to " recomended intake" on all food

it was at this time ( sunday night) the hives started. hives this was midnight after she ate at about 8pm.

we initially were thinking it may be the green ants in the garden. or food. i was leaning to food.

the next day it looked like this hives 9 hrs later

the vet suggested keeping her locked inside for a week to see if it was the garden ( we know thats common with staffy skin) and to keep her diet fairly static with the same foods every day and that hills science was fine. and to give her half a zyrtec 12 hours apart when she had a hive attack.. the zyrtec didnt really do much took the edge off when the attacks were bad that was all.

the hives continued with ocasional soft poop. milder reactions but still annoying you can see the bumps in her fur here... fur hives

we then decided to have an allergy blood test as the hives wernt stopping. around that time i came across an australian made brand that seemed it would be good for allergies... ivory coat puppy in chicken ivory coat

we swapped to this along with homemade chicken or beef with rice and vegetables

the hives slowed to only 3-5 every couple of days instead of a belly full daily

while waiting for the blood test to come back ( 2 weeks) the vet advised to feed her only chicken and rice. i asked what if she was allergic to rice, and was informed that was unlikely.

since it didnt appear to be garden based allergies we fenced off areas of plants and allowed her back outside on the grass.

the hives continued on a small scale of 2-5 every few days.

the test results came back with very high reactions to a lot of things. here is the allergy report. a " severe allergy" is 99 or higher. things in the 80s and 90s are things that need monitoring

allergy results

if you are unable to see the picture

mid 100s for several types of grasses and weeds willow trees and acacia trees.

almost 200s on several molds

dust mites 198

beef 94

venison 194

chicken 94

pork 91

kanga 54

lamb 87

turkey 90

a high allergy to RICE 126

brewers yeast 199

milk and kelp and white fish

and a large allergy to canola oil and tobacco smoke

so from those results i was advised to stop the chicken and rice ( i just knew it , knew thered be a rice issue) try barley and oats with chicken and continue with the ivory coat. be sure not to use shop bought treats with training ( i make my own slow oven dried chicken "chips" which she loves, the cat loves, and actually i love LOL) and leave the diet fairly static till shes older ( over 9 months) and we can do another allergy test to see if shes grown out of some of the allergies.

for her 16 week vax the vet wanted to keep her in and watch her incase the major reaction last time was her vax. she didnt react this time and didnt seem to get any hives within a week of the vax.

so my question i need help with is what is an " apropriate" ammount of food. especially in the last 2 weeks shes been very very hungry. and i cant tell if its just normal staffy puppy greed, or shes not getting enough fats/nutrition to make her feel full. we ve also had a probelm with her eating her poop expecially later at night when she indicates shes hungry by checking her bowl area and then not getting food. the vet suggested zuchini in the food as that makes the poop bitter and less aletable

.

I know with humans that when you have alot of allergies you dont digest and extract nutrients apropriately. and often have a larger apetite and put on weight well.

Molly is now 19 w very tall with long legs and long bodied and weight around 11kg at the moment. ( she puts on about a kg every 10days to 3 weeks)

she doesnt appear fat at all, and every 2-4 days she actually looks like shes missed a few meals as her ribs are sticking out.

this was her tis morning. her paws can reach the top of a kitchen bench fairly easily as a height reference. the front grate in this image is hip height on me. molly today

a normal day consists of

breakfast of half a cup ivory coat and a handfull of boiled chicken diced finely ( usually around 9 am ish - sometimes earlier like 6am if hubby has early shift and molly gets out of bed when he leaves)

by about midday ( earlier if hubby fed her at 6) shes hungry again. she shows this by digging at her empty ceramic bowl and picking it up and moving it around the house.

around then shell get about a cup full of oats/barley and chicken with zucchini , this week i added carrot and coconut oil

sometimes she really really wants a second lunch about an hour afterwards depending on the first lunch time. i will give her a half a cup- a full cup of ivory coat biscuits ( their suggestion is around 2 cups a day for her size so by now shes never more then 1.5 cups)

around 2-4 we do training and commands and play and shell get lots of chicken jerky chips ( chips are about half a 5 cent coin)

from around 5 shes circling for food. around now she starts "throwing tantrums" doing things shes knows shes not allowed to or supposed to ( today it was tearing up clean pee pads , into shreds) in between these little tantrum shes checking her bowl. i try to stretch dinner closer to about 6 pm

dinner is another cup of oats/ barley chicken mix.

lately ( 2-3 weeks) shes wanting desperately a second serve of dinner by about 7 pm. so when shes stopped digging around the food area i'll give her the last 1/2 cup of ivory coat and some chicken or some more mix.

depending on our personal schedule ( im a photographer and i edit at night to quite late, and hubby works shifts and often can either be starting or finishing at 11pm so i will often be cooking food around 10pm) she starts getting quite insistent on getting some more food for herself. i have started giving her a little chicken or mix at around 11. shes seems content to sleep the night then.

so any help from those in the indepth know of dog diets and nutrient requrements how much and if shes getting what shes needs. it was suggested to me by my friend that she doesnt need the bulk of oats or barley, that she wouldnt digest it well.

but if i removed the oats and barley id either have to double the ivory coat or maybe tripple the chicken.... and i might go bankrupt if i had to triple the chicken.

any help gratefully read.

molly says thank you !

if you made it this far you need a medal :D hank you so much

Edited June 1, 2015 by Jorgo

[Taliecat]

Wow!

The poor little girl, those are some serious allergies!

From those allergy numbers it sounds like chicken may not be the best for her either, but fish may be an option.. Well.. I just read her full allergy results and white fish is a nope, maybe salmon?

I love ivory coat, it's a great food and my boy loved it, but he's an American staffy and has allergies too.. No where near as bad as your poor little one but gets yeasty from the amount of peas in ivory coat.

I feed black hawk fish and potato which does have some brown rice from memory..

Vets all natural may be another option with a novel protien like goat..

If you have chat with your vet, there is a prescription dry food with a hydrolysed protien that may be ok..

[Stressmagnet]

Is your staffy blue or blue brindle? Were both her parents blue or a variation of blue? Has she been tested for colour dilute alopecia?'

Edited June 1, 2015 by Stressmagnet

[Dame Aussie]

Poor Molly! In the picture you linked she doesn't look underweight to me. Kangaroo seems to be the lowest on the list of allergies, have you tried her on that?

[denali]

From her results i too wouldnt be feeding chicken. Would be going to roo.

And raw, if she can tolerate the chicken raw too i would feed it that way :)

Not sure as i didnt read the ingredients thoroughly- but perhaps something like this would suit?

http://www.naturalpe...-beans---3.4kg/

She doesnt look at all skinny to me. A growing pup should be lean.

ETA: you can steam veggies. They provide some nutriets but act largely as a filler, like the oats and barley. So additional veggies may help. Or give her some raw carrotts to chomp on as snacks.

Edited June 2, 2015 by denali

[persephone]

poor pup.

food amount seems to be fine - she is certainly not thin :)

Perhaps she has learned to do blah blah, and the food appears! ;)

There have been lots of posts on D O L about itchy staffies - and blue staffies with problems - go up to 'search' - type in itchy staffy , or similar , and see what you might find .

I would also suggest you look at some supplements to help her immune system - it will be working so hard coping with everything itchy, plus vaccines , plus whatever flea/wormer she has .

The tooth/jaw thing concerns me a bit - did the vet say the adult teeth would grow in straight ? It would be awful if a jaw misalignment means she needs teeth removed etc .

[Sandra777]

If she wants food - feed her.

If she gets fat, feed her less

If she keeps a consistent weight then you're feeding her the right amount.

I've had Staffordshire Bull Terriers for over 35 years and this is the standard advice I give to anyone with a SBT pup.

Watch her when her adult teeth come through. Now she has no baby canines to guide the adult ones into place you run the very real risk of her adult ones converging as well. Shame the baby ones were removed - they are really important to the future of her having a good adult bite. Clipping the tips would have been a far better option. Can't be helped now - so just be very alert and aware of this.

Kangaroo generally agrees with Staffords pretty well. She could have roo bones (tail is great), raw whole fish and instead of feeding her chicken, try lamb as this seems to be more suited to her. You can get lamb offcuts from most supermarkets with bone and fat still on, which is great. If you want to continue with the chicken despite it being higher on the allergy scale - get thighs or drums when they're on special and feed her them whole. I buy whole chickens on special and chop them in to 3 or 4 depending on who I need to be feeding.

Personally I wouldn't feed her the grains, give her meat with the bone in instead to bulk out her food as this will supply important nutrients.

Google dilute alopecia because it sounds like you may need to know about this

What do you wash your floors with? Her bedding? Her? :laugh: What worm/flea treatments have you applied?

ETA: meat with bone in it - ALWAYS feed this raw.

Edited June 2, 2015 by Sandra777

[Sandra777]

Is your staffy blue or blue brindle? Were both her parents blue or a variation of blue? Has she been tested for colour dilute alopecia?'

Unsurprisingly, yes she is SM

[persephone]

....and I definitely would NOT be passing on the breeder's name to friends wanting a pup. several red lights there.

[Salukifan]

Allergies are a symptom. A depressed immune system is the cause.

You've got yourself a colour known for skin issues in a breed with sensitive skin. Good on you for doing the hard yards for this pup.

But what you haven't got (yet) is the WHY for all these issues.

I think you need a referral to a veterinary skin/allergy specialist. I'd also be having a good look at thyroid levels.

I hope you can sort this out.

[Animal House]

Good advice so far, and good on you for seeking treatment for her. :D

In that last photo with her front on, she looks more Amstaff to me, though I'm not the best judge. :laugh: Does anyone else think so?

[persephone]

I love the photo of her in pink :)

She is a lucky puppy to have such an owner !

[Jorgo]

Thanks for the comments guys.

Yes she is a blue brindle. I will have to look into that... Thanks for the heads up.

Dad was blue mum is copper and white.

No I won't be recommending the breeders at all . After contacting her she claims to "never have heard of allergies in dogs" and none of her dogs or puppies have ever had issues... ( 3 other litters) Yeah right ok whatever. Everyone knows about staffy skin!

Papers and impressive pedigree wasn't an important factor for us and we THOUGHT we did enough research and question asking regarding the parents and previous pups , but I suppose we didn't account for ignorance and or outright lying and stupidity.

We've had staffies before and staffy cross. We've had skin issues and hotspots , just NEVER this bad. And it's been a long while since we've had a puppy.

She's a happy pup otherwise and as long as she doesn't snuffle up the No NO foods while at the inlaws ( this is very hard to police with 6 kids under 7 running around I'm doing my best I'm usually a step behind her while we are there, but her being a part of family functions like the other family dogs is important for us ) then we mostly don't have issues . We've been good for the last month or so.

and I had intentions of mostly making her food and feeding raw anyhow ... But for ease when she was being minded , if we were away, wanted to have her happy to eat store bought as well.

Yes we tried the roo , I made a batch , for one meal. And whether it was a coincidence or not that night she had runny poops 4-5 in about 3 hours span. I froze the rest of the batch. I will try another meal of it again soon. After seeing the numbers I had intentions of swapping to roo and pork.

Yes cazablanca, she looks very amstaff at the moment, both parents very English looking tho. Our last dog was amstaff X kelpie and had very similar face shape

Persephone , I'm very careful not to put food in the bowl within 30 minutes of her indicating hunger or shuffling her bowls around. The last thing I want is a dog having a personal chef on command ! If a "tantrum" happens I try to go even longer before food appears. Try to have her sit on her bed for a while hopefully have atleast a 20 minute nap before any food is put infront of her. ... Trying to find a supliments that doesn't have kelp in it is hard. I have been looking, they all seem to have atleast one thing on her list.

Sandra , thanks for all that, floors are cleaned with a steam cleaner. And if really dirty vinegar and bicarb. ( I'm mostly chemical free here for my own allergies) wood and vinyl floors here.

The vets dentist surgeon guy said jaw mis alignment was a higher probability if leaving the baby canines in . It's so hard making these choices we can only do so much googling before we can only take the opinion of the vets we choose to trust ( she's never steered us wrong in our other animals previously)

Thanks everyone for your opinions, time for some googling.

[Jorgo]

Oh and the homemade food did have lots of different dog allowed veg in it, untill the exclusion diet, and since the only veg tested was carrot peas corn and potatoes, and all those are apparently fine we were letting the hives settle down before testing one veg a week.

Out of interest, if blue and blue brindle are known for even worse then normal staffy skin, what colour is a good colour? We do want to get Molly a brother at the end of the year and we may as well try for less problematic version.

[Sandra777]

Out of interest, if blue and blue brindle are known for even worse then normal staffy skin, what colour is a good colour? We do want to get Molly a brother at the end of the year and we may as well try for less problematic version.

All blues are brindle.

An ethically bred dog will have far less chance of having skin issues.

Colour is nothing to do with allergies.

Dilute alopecia only affects dilutes, but you don't have to have allergies to have alopecia (nor do you have to have alopecia to have allergies).

As I mentioned above I've had Staffords for over 35 years, I have bred ONE dog with a beef allergy and ONE dog with generalised skin allergies - which cleared up once the owner stopped throwing chemicals at the dog.

You need to buy off someone who knows and cares about the breed, about the ancestors of their dogs and who breeds for the right reasons, not to make even more little time-bombs.

"Normal staffy skin" is the same as any other dog skin - if it's bred by people who don't know or care you have the possibility of issues regardless of what you do. If it's bred by people who pay attention to the important stuff you have pretty much zero chance of issues unless you stuff it up yourself.

[Jorgo]

Ok thanks Sandra .

[persephone]

..Boy, Molly is blessed with you as her family , really :)

We do need some cute snoozy/happy pics , you know ;)

[sas]

The only accurate food allergy/intolerance test in the world is Nutriscan. The blood test ones are hugely inaccurate and Dermatologists don't pay them any attention so do not get overly concerned about those results.

Yes we tried the roo , I made a batch , for one meal. And whether it was a coincidence or not that night she had runny poops 4-5 in about 3 hours span. I froze the rest of the batch. I will try another meal of it again soon. After seeing the numbers I had intentions of swapping to roo and pork.

You'll want to start off with something less rich if yoru dog is already sensative, Roo can do that to many dogs.

Colour is nothing to do with allergies.

That's not quite accurate. Mostly white coloured dogs of some breeds can have very challenging skin conditions such as White, Merle-a-quin and Harlequin Great Danes, Blues in the Great Dane breed also seem to have a number of challenges with their skin. Some colours are affected because they become on-trend and are bred by those who don't know or care enough by what they're doing and as you mentioned ethical breeding... But a defective skin barrier is what it is if Atopy is a problem and this is known to have a genetic component and that means Mum & Dad can be free of symptoms.

___

I feel for you, this thread is full of inconsistent information. The best thing you can do is get a referral to a Dermatologist.

Edited June 2, 2015 by sas

[Sandra777]

Colour is nothing to do with allergies.

That's not quite accurate. Mostly white coloured dogs of some breeds can have very challenging skin conditions such as White, Merle-a-quin and Harlequin Great Danes, Blues in the Great Dane breed also seem to have a number of challenges with their skin. Some colours are affected because they become on-trend and are bred by those who don't know or care enough by what they're doing and as you mentioned ethical breeding... But a defective skin barrier is what it is if Atopy is a problem and this is known to have a genetic component and that means Mum & Dad can be free of symptoms.

Sorry SAS I don't quite get what you're saying...

In my experience, the careful selection of breeding stock has far more influence on the skin health of the dog than the colour of the dog. We can argue the influence of trendy colours, over breeding and genetics until the cows come home but it has been my experience that if the pup isn't bred with care and attention to the health of the parents and their relations then it really doesn't matter what colour it is.

I have had a number of white Staffords over the years, they have had no skin conditions. I have seen white, brindle, red and blue pups from well bred litters, all with no skin issues. I have seen white, brindle, red and blue pups from poorly bred litters, some with skin conditions, some without.

It's been my observation over the years that two perfectly OK parents can produce horrible skin conditions, but you only have to dig a wee bit deeper to find close relations with horrible skin conditions. Which is where buying from someone who does the right thing is vastly more important than the actual colour of the dog.

[Jorgo]

..Boy, Molly is blessed with you as her family , really :)

We do need some cute snoozy/happy pics , you know ;)

I've just started Molly's own Instagram,....... Lol I have lots of snoozy happy photos, not so much awake ones.... She tends to look possessed in photos .. Nothing but a face blur lol

I can give you puppy in a tutu? Lol.

Says, thanks for that, we were looking at Mark shipstine ships something .... Who is a lecture red at qld uni ... He's one of the specialists at the emergency hospital we took her to.

I agree it's probably a best bet. It's on our list of to do. :)