Stubborness As A Trait

[aussielover]

I love biddable, eager to please breeds! I wouldnt enjoy working with a "stubborn" dog.

But to be stubborn a dog has to understand what is asked of it and then choose not to do it.

I think a lot of people mistake lack of training for stubbornness. I know with my dog, if she doesn't do do something it is more than likely because she doesn't fully understand the task rather than because she doesn't want to or can't be bothered.

[Pjrt]

Haha im the exact opposite! I really dont like interacting with extremely biddable "what can I do for ya next?" kind of dogs! Those ones that are uber alert and have to get up and move with you every time you move and run up and back up and back or always have a toy for you to throw or have to climb all over you or scream and carry on happy dance when you come home etc etc. Id hate a dog that needed much mental stimulation to be happy.

I like the 'stubborn' ones. I actually think it takes a lot of smarts to be stubborn. I like a dog that can just relax and take in the world around it without having to seem overly involved.

[mita]

Dogs that choose whether or not to respond to a command I don't consider stubborn, just indifferently motivated so that they need to see if motivation outweighs other self-interest - every single time!

I agree.

Me, too. The high-lighted bit reminded me of Tibbies .... 'What's the point of this?' and 'What's in it for me?' If Tibbies figure an answer for both.... they're the most cooperative dogs. If they figure 'None' and 'Nothing', you have Buckley's chance.

But I like this trait because they have a mind of their own... and they don't give it away lightly. I've learned to trust our Tibs' point of view.

I read that breeds from Tibet have this trait.... even the horses. In a harsh, dangerous land, survival depends on making your own fast decisions, whether you're a human, dog or horse. Like, the horses invariably 'feel' rock slides etc before their rider, so the humans trust their responses. I don't know how true it is ... but I was told that this independence of mind is also found in other eastern breeds.

Edited May 30, 2015 by mita

[The Spotted Devil]

If you'd met my Dally up to the age of 2 you might have called him stubborn. Now I call him Agility Champion. I just needed to find out what made him tick.

Is my ESS stubborn when I can't move her focus from a duck? Or is she simply highly motivated to hunt game?

[Little Gifts]

Dogs that choose whether or not to respond to a command I don't consider stubborn, just indifferently motivated so that they need to see if motivation outweighs other self-interest - every single time!

I agree.

Me, too. The high-lighted bit reminded me of Tibbies .... 'What's the point of this?' and 'What's in it for me?' If Tibbies figure an answer for both.... they're the most cooperative dogs. If they figure 'None' and 'Nothing', you have Buckley's chance.

But I like this trait because they have a mind of their own... and they don't give it away lightly. I've learned to trust our Tibs' point of view.

I read that breeds from Tibet have this trait.... even the horses. In a harsh, dangerous land, survival depends on making your own fast decisions, whether you're a human, dog or horse. Like, the horses invariably 'feel' rock slides etc before their rider, so the humans trust their responses. I don't know how true it is ... but I was told that this independence of mind is also found in other eastern breeds.

I definitely think this could also relate to pei and chows. They were all originally bred for similar purposes and it makes a lot of sense to me now I see it in black and white. They have to be free thinkers for survival purposes and to do their jobs. I see Tempeh's mind ticking over all the time while our other dogs just 'see and respond'. And her ears are constantly doing 360's listening to everything, even while she is resting. But it is still her who decides what is important and what is not - she has her own yardstick!

[aussielover]

I don't know, some of the most biddable breeds also have to be independent and think for themselves. Sheepdogs are often expected to work out of sight of their handler for longish periods when collecting sheep. Gundogs are away from their handlers while collecting game.

[The Spotted Devil]

Yes exactly aussielover. I send Em for the mark (up to 150m) and then, unless I see that she is nowhere near the area of the fall I trust her to quarter and scent until she nails it. Unless it's a National. Then I handle lol

[mita]

They have to be free thinkers for survival purposes and to do their jobs.

Yes, LG, something related to survival in different settings, for the various breeds. That seems to me the kind of trait that RuralPug was talking about.

We had working dog breeds for many years, before having tibbies .... & the difference was striking.

The top US breeders maintain this information site ...& you can see why I found that.

http://www.tibbies.net/learn/right-breed-for-you/

Edited May 30, 2015 by mita

[corvus]

I used to know a dog I called stubborn because if he wanted something, he didn't seem to care what the cost was or how long it would take him, he would have it. Some of it was that he could be extremely persistent, but there was a bullheadedness to how he went about pursuing some of his goals with reckless determination. There's a theory of personality in animals that it is emergent and first begins with somewhat chance strategies. An animal has success with particular strategies, so uses them more, and has still more success with them, so over time their typical strategies become stronger, more pronounced, and less variant, i.e. personality emerges. I think in this dog's case, he started out a little bullheaded and it worked for him and he adopted it more and more.

I love my spitz breeds for many of their typical traits, but their behaviour is governed by the same rules as every other breed. It took my vallhund about 6 months before he stopped giving me the "why?" look every time I suggested he do something, but he did because he learnt I have good ideas and following them brings him things he desires. He is basically a BC in a little dwarf wolf coat these days. The lapphund is not far behind him, but although I could teach him to be more persistent and therefore slower to give up on things, I can't teach him to be as persistent as the vallhund, because they started with different baselines. One is persistent by nature and one has been taught it. I expect there is more individual genetics and experience behind their personalities than breed-specific behaviour.

[Canisbellum]

Shar pei are well known for their stubbornness. They are a smart dog so pick up commands quickly but then like to decide whether they want to do them or not. They also tend to choose who they like (as opposed to say my sbt who loves everyone and everything and just wants the same in return). Some pei have no interest in other people or other dogs either. I've been at peinics with maybe two dozen pei who don't know each other and yet there were no fights because the pei were really only interested in what their people were doing. I've also had pei who don't know each other all crowded around me for treats without anything kicking off.

Here's just one example from my time fostering the breed. I had an adult male who constantly refused to do as he was told only in regards to being on my bed. It was a regular battle of wills. I would command him to get off and he would ignore me. I would push him off and he would get straight back on. He just pretended I wasn't there. Every room I tried to confine him to he ate the beds and the door frames. A can't remember now why I didn't crate train him but there was obviously a reason as all the others were. Yet once on the bed he was as quiet as a mouse and there were nights when I just gave up so I could get some sleep. Some people came to meet him and he turned on the charm and they adopted him. They lived in a two storey townhouse and decided he would sleep downstairs on a dog bed. I told them my concerns but right from the first night he slept on his bed in the lounge room. They never heard him come upstairs during the night and he never tried to get on their bed. Even when they were home he never tried to even come into their room. Eventually they decided to let him on their bed for cuddles but only at their invitation. Last I heard he had never abused their trust in him. This is because what they want is important to him and his relationship with them. He didn't want the same relationship with me.

They are not recommended as dogs for newbies because those cute bundles of rolls can grow into strong bodied and strong willed teenagers.

Shar Pei to a T

Jonah still has moments when he chooses if he will listen or does what I want but at his pace. He pretty much just ignores other peoples wishes unless there is something in it for him. As for other people touching him only the privileged will be allowed to touch him and others he treat as if they have the plague

[huski]

I've never met a dog who doesn't ask "what's in it for me?". some dogs are more easy to motivate than others, which can make them seem more eager to please. people often comment to me that Mals have so much drive they must be so easy to train, but all that drive makes them easy to motivate not easy to train. And if it's channeled the wrong way, it can be a disaster. Some of the most "stubborn" dogs I have met have been breeds people class as easy to train, that have loads of drive directed in a way that isn't useful to the owner.

[westiemum]

Westies!! Stubborn in a 'Why should I? What's in it for me? Ha? Ha?' sort of way...

[raineth]

Del sometimes seems to have a moment where it really seems as though she is weighing up her options.

I don't totally consider her a stubborn dog though.

And the more I train/proof something the more likely she is to have an automatic reaction to the command.

[hankdog]

Jake isn't stubborn but he likes to consider all the options, for a while, and then the consequences and the ramifications and all the future knock on effects.

He makes a well planned, considered response to your requests. You can offer peanut butter to help sway the decision your way but you have an even chance of it working. Smart dog.

[WoofnHoof]

This topic reminds me of this clip, I believe it was made by a doler, pretty much sums up my husky :)

[RedFeather]

My Lappie is a dream at home. Will usually obey most commands first time, especially if he can see there is a treat in it for him. But outside of the home, everything else is just far too exciting to be bothered by a simple treat. There are PEOPLE and DOGS so why would I do what you ask just cause you have a treat?

So...stubborn spitz breed? Maybe. I just think he's highly distractable and not hugely food motivated.

Edited June 1, 2015 by RedFeather

[huski]

My Lappie is a dream at home. Will usually obey most commands first time, especially if he can see there is a treat in it for him. But outside of the home, everything else is just far too exciting to be bothered by a simple treat. There are PEOPLE and DOGS so why would I do what you ask just cause you have a treat?

So...stubborn spitz breed? Maybe. I just think he's highly distractable and not hugely food motivated.

You've just described probably one of the most common training problems, from pet owners and competitors alike. I speak to a lot of people with many different breeds (including more "bidable" ones like BCs, GSDs, labs etc) who have exactly the same problem.

There are three main reasons dogs will work nicely at home but not around distraction;

1) They have never been taught how to perform obedience under distraction, the behaviour isn't proofed

2) The dog believes they need to see reward to produce behaviour rather than thinking their behaviour produces reward.

3) The dog has more value for distraction than the rewards you have to offer.

It definitely isn't about stubborness, more about training :)

[Snoopy21]

I've discussed this with people a lot. I call my old girl stubborn, because she is. She is food motivated and will work really nicely most of the time, but she is also headstrong and will blow you off if she feels like it. The thing is, that if we say that biddable is the opposite to stubborn, which it seems that it is, then if we can say that biddable is a trait, then isn't a lack of biddability (hence stubbornness) also a trait? Obviously apathy is not the same thing, neither is a lack of training or feeble mindedness, but - isn't that how it works?

[Diana R]

I tend to think of stubbornness as a bit of a mix of traits (and TBH don't think of it much as a trait of dogs). Dogs that aren't biddable (or socially motivated), but who are risk averse and therefore less likely to ignore corrections, would generally not be classified as stubborn by most people (IME anyway). Nor would a dog that's not biddable, is not risk averse (so couldn't care less if it was punished), but was easily motivated in other ways (the 'what's in it for me' dogs) because we've still got avenues to control their behaviour. I think persistence is a component of being stubborn, but I don't see persistence on it's own as a problematic behaviour, and the same goes for a degree of independent thinking.

When I think of stubborn behaviour, I tend to think of people who know and maybe even acknowledge that the position they are holding is untenable, but flatly refuse to change it for some reason, even in the face of lots of positive motivation and even risk to themselves. I tend to think of it as a bit of a human trait TBH, because to me it requires some form of acknowledgement or understanding on the behalf of the stubborn person that they understand the situation and flatly refuse to change it anyway, and dogs can't do that, so I suppose I always just give them the benefit of the doubt.

[corvus]

^^ That is exactly why I called that one dog I knew stubborn. Sometimes I would watch him dive into attaining some goal and I couldn't believe he thought this was a good idea. It seemed reckless to me, or a lot of fuss over a trivial gain. Sometimes I was suspicious he was making a point. He was a very smart dog, and I don't think anyone else was playing the same game as him. I guess he maybe knew something I didn't, though, because he never did bite off more than he could chew. He was just prepared to chew all day if he had to.

You have to condition dogs to respond to you in exciting environments. They literally can't do it at first. There are lots of important and exciting things to check out, but you're always there waiting for them when they get bored. They attend to the more pressing things first just like we do. So, the trick is to condition them to want to keep track of you because it's rewarding. If you are a bundle of unpredictable reinforcement possibilities, it is suddenly a good idea for them to keep an ear out for you and keep an eye on where you are. At any moment, you could give them an opportunity to earn reinforcement. You have to start within their capabilities, though. I will pay for just the tinniest glance in my direction at first, then work up to check-ins, hand targets, sits, then start asking for several behaviours, or a sit-stay, and just keep adding. You're conditioning them to keep tabs on you. Just make sure you release the dog before they take off on their own.