Stubborness As A Trait

[samoyedman]

I guess to some extent all dogs are a product of their training. However, would you say some breeds have a propensity for certain behavioural traits such as stubborness? Perhaps it's more personality than behaviour (fine line I know).

I have 3 or 4 books on samoyeds and all of them refer to this breed as 'headstrong'. I have to say I tend to agree with this assesment.

Are there other breeds notorious for being stubborn?

[Katdogs]

Not sure if it's the Malt or Shih, but the two MxS I've shared a lot of time with were the stubbornest shzzzzs ever.

[Taliecat]

My amstaff is stubborn as hell..

I believe bull terriers are also pretty stubborn.

[Mim]

Swedish vallhunds have a reputation as being stubborn. So do corgis, but comparing my corgis to my vallhund, they aren't stubborn. A Pembroke Corgi would jump through hoops for a piece of lettuce or a "good dog". My vall would think about it and then decide if it was worth her time :laugh:

[samoyedman]

Swedish vallhunds have a reputation as being stubborn. So do corgis, but comparing my corgis to my vallhund, they aren't stubborn. A Pembroke Corgi would jump through hoops for a piece of lettuce or a "good dog". My vall would think about it and then decide if it was worth her time :laugh:

Re bolded, exactly what my samoyed does. You can see he is thinking about whether he will obey you or not.

There's no such thing as 'commands' with this breed, only requests.

[Isabel964]

I've been doing some research on breeds because I have two dogs that are for the most part inseparable, and one is very old. so I need to consider what to do when the time comes because the younger dog will really fret without her companion.

I have found the Shiba Inu a very interesting breed.However if research well enough you will find that while are indeed delightful dogs, they can be headstrong big time.

I am used to a kelpie, very focused on pleasing their humans, like the blue heeler and the boxer. I like those traits, makes then easy to train, loyal,

and therefore the dogs as pets have a better quality of life.

Of course, with the right training, most dogs will be ok, but that we can research traits of a dog to find if they are suitable to our families and lifestyles is one very high advantage of getting a purebred dog (same goes for cats).

[sparkycat]

I don't know if its stubbornness or a matter of "what's in it for me". Both of mine -a Lappie and a Borzoi are supposed to be stubborn but I have found that I just need to figure out from their prospective what they think they will get out of my request !

I do fun non-competitive agility with both of them and it is fun working out what they like and don't like.

[Bjelkier]

I think it's more about how you train them and the working relationship you have with your dog. I trust my Samoyeds to do what I ask 99% of the time, in fact they're more willing to work for me than my Lab or Havanese are, however they aren't for everyone and I think their intelligence is seen as stubbornness much of the time.

Other spitz breeds and hounds are very similar, to smart for their own good :laugh:

Edited May 29, 2015 by Bjelkier

[Little Gifts]

Shar pei are well known for their stubbornness. They are a smart dog so pick up commands quickly but then like to decide whether they want to do them or not. They also tend to choose who they like (as opposed to say my sbt who loves everyone and everything and just wants the same in return). Some pei have no interest in other people or other dogs either. I've been at peinics with maybe two dozen pei who don't know each other and yet there were no fights because the pei were really only interested in what their people were doing. I've also had pei who don't know each other all crowded around me for treats without anything kicking off.

Here's just one example from my time fostering the breed. I had an adult male who constantly refused to do as he was told only in regards to being on my bed. It was a regular battle of wills. I would command him to get off and he would ignore me. I would push him off and he would get straight back on. He just pretended I wasn't there. Every room I tried to confine him to he ate the beds and the door frames. A can't remember now why I didn't crate train him but there was obviously a reason as all the others were. Yet once on the bed he was as quiet as a mouse and there were nights when I just gave up so I could get some sleep. Some people came to meet him and he turned on the charm and they adopted him. They lived in a two storey townhouse and decided he would sleep downstairs on a dog bed. I told them my concerns but right from the first night he slept on his bed in the lounge room. They never heard him come upstairs during the night and he never tried to get on their bed. Even when they were home he never tried to even come into their room. Eventually they decided to let him on their bed for cuddles but only at their invitation. Last I heard he had never abused their trust in him. This is because what they want is important to him and his relationship with them. He didn't want the same relationship with me.

They are not recommended as dogs for newbies because those cute bundles of rolls can grow into strong bodied and strong willed teenagers.

[Bjelkier]

LG - that behaviour is very similar to what I see in my Samoyeds. Sure they love everyone they meet but only a very small number of people can get real work out of them. As my partner is always saying 'they love me but they're your dogs' and it's true, if I say jump the sammys are already in the air before they ask what I want. If he says it they look at him with the typical 'why?' expression.

Edited May 29, 2015 by Bjelkier

[VizslaMomma]

Swedish vallhunds have a reputation as being stubborn. So do corgis, but comparing my corgis to my vallhund, they aren't stubborn. A Pembroke Corgi would jump through hoops for a piece of lettuce or a "good dog". My vall would think about it and then decide if it was worth her time :laugh:

Re bolded, exactly what my samoyed does. You can see he is thinking about whether he will obey you or not.

There's no such thing as 'commands' with this breed, only requests.

I would add the Vizsla to this as well.

If motivated or inclined, HH might go along with a request. It can be hard to make the request I could care less if you do it, Dog when you are desperate for cooperation LOL

[RuralPug]

People have different definitions of "stubborn". Dogs wih lack of motivation, slowness of response, lack of comprehension of command, difficulty in refocusing etc.etc. have all been labelled "stubborn". Any breed that doesn't respond with the desperate eagerness to please of a Border Collie can be called "stubborn" by some, sadly.

LG's example is more what I would call stubborn, a forceful determined repeating of the same behavior against all odds - that is stubborn. My younger Siamese cat climbing onto my shoulder while I'm typing and continually climbing back again after I've picked him off and deposited him on the floor two dozen times is stubborn.

Breeds that tend to need firm handling I don't call stubborn, headstrong is a word that I do like, or the phrase "wrongfully focused" to describe a coursing breed not responding to a recall or a scenting breed wandering off after an intriguing odour during a heeling exercise. But I've heard a lot of owners and trainers call these dogs "stubborn".

Dogs that choose whether or not to respond to a command I don't consider stubborn, just indifferently motivated so that they need to see if motivation outweighs other self-interest - every single time!

Maybe it's just semantics. Maybe it's just me.

[The Spotted Devil]

People have different definitions of "stubborn". Dogs wih lack of motivation, slowness of response, lack of comprehension of command, difficulty in refocusing etc.etc. have all been labelled "stubborn". Any breed that doesn't respond with the desperate eagerness to please of a Border Collie can be called "stubborn" by some, sadly.

LG's example is more what I would call stubborn, a forceful determined repeating of the same behavior against all odds - that is stubborn. My younger Siamese cat climbing onto my shoulder while I'm typing and continually climbing back again after I've picked him off and deposited him on the floor two dozen times is stubborn.

Breeds that tend to need firm handling I don't call stubborn, headstrong is a word that I do like, or the phrase "wrongfully focused" to describe a coursing breed not responding to a recall or a scenting breed wandering off after an intriguing odour during a heeling exercise. But I've heard a lot of owners and trainers call these dogs "stubborn".

Dogs that choose whether or not to respond to a command I don't consider stubborn, just indifferently motivated so that they need to see if motivation outweighs other self-interest - every single time!

Maybe it's just semantics. Maybe it's just me.

I agree.

[huski]

Dogs that can be called stubborn are often dogs who are highly motivated but have learnt to reward themselves by doing behaviour the owner doesn't like.

For example a lo t of people call beagles stubborn because they won't stop scenting once they get stuck on a scent. But if the goal was teaching the dog tracking or scent work, would a beagle still be considered stubborn that it wouldn't come off a scent or would it be considered great at his job?

[Stressmagnet]

My amstaff was stubborn beyond belief. But that was also coupled with a smart approach to being taught - she needed to see what the upside was for HER before she would comply.

Edited May 29, 2015 by Stressmagnet

[huski]

I think that's true of every dog SM. every dog asks what's in it for me. Some dogs are just more easily motivated.

[WoofnHoof]

People have different definitions of "stubborn". Dogs wih lack of motivation, slowness of response, lack of comprehension of command, difficulty in refocusing etc.etc. have all been labelled "stubborn". Any breed that doesn't respond with the desperate eagerness to please of a Border Collie can be called "stubborn" by some, sadly.

LG's example is more what I would call stubborn, a forceful determined repeating of the same behavior against all odds - that is stubborn. My younger Siamese cat climbing onto my shoulder while I'm typing and continually climbing back again after I've picked him off and deposited him on the floor two dozen times is stubborn.

Breeds that tend to need firm handling I don't call stubborn, headstrong is a word that I do like, or the phrase "wrongfully focused" to describe a coursing breed not responding to a recall or a scenting breed wandering off after an intriguing odour during a heeling exercise. But I've heard a lot of owners and trainers call these dogs "stubborn".

Dogs that choose whether or not to respond to a command I don't consider stubborn, just indifferently motivated so that they need to see if motivation outweighs other self-interest - every single time!

Maybe it's just semantics. Maybe it's just me.

I agree.

Same here, I wouldn't call huskies stubborn but they certainly aren't a biddable breed! Mine has such a laid back attitude he just flicks off a casual "nah" if I ask him to do something and he's not interested. He's funny too you say "down" and if he doesn't want to he will try and get away with just a half assed effort :laugh:

[Stressmagnet]

I think that's true of every dog SM. every dog asks what's in it for me. Some dogs are just more easily motivated.

Yeah but certainly Ernie is a lot easier to train than Georgia ever was. I could see Georgia's brain working out if she really wanted a treat or a cuddle or a toy ENOUGH to do whatever I was asking. As she got older, it was often 'nah, I'm too comfortable/interested in something else/cannot be arsed'. It did make me laugh. Whereas Ernie could be in the circus - if you've got a piece of liver snack, he will whip through his whole repertoire in an effort to get it.

Two different breeds.

I think the term 'biddable' is the key. I hadn't really understood the term until I got a Labrador, now it all makes sense.

[Little Gifts]

LG - that behaviour is very similar to what I see in my Samoyeds. Sure they love everyone they meet but only a very small number of people can get real work out of them. As my partner is always saying 'they love me but they're your dogs' and it's true, if I say jump the sammys are already in the air before they ask what I want. If he says it they look at him with the typical 'why?' expression.

I feel like because Tempeh (shar pei) chose me as her person she trusts me implicitly even when she's scared. She loves my sister too and adores my mum but if something she hates needs to be done (ie an ear clean) it is me who she will submit to. Sure she goes stiff like a statue but she stays engaged. But on the other side of things we have her stubbornness. We use NILIF and other behavioural techniques because she has a lot of quirks that need managing. So something simple like making her sit for treats and her breakfast or dinner becomes a battle of wills. I give her the sit command and she makes a half arsed attempt. I give it to her again and she gives me a questioning noise and slight dip. I say it again and she takes a solid stance and paws me. The other dogs are dribbling and giving her death stares. She's looking at me like what the hell's wrong with you, give me my treat already! I can see her thinking she gave me a stupid sit in response to a pointless command - why fully sit when she likes to eat standing up?

As she was initially a foster she did her training in a group setting and learnt a lot (and quickly) by following what our other dogs did when given commands. She is not in to tricks (she can't seem to see the point) but is a natural at agility. I never feel like she wants to please me and I never feel like she is motivated by anything in particular. But in reality I am her safety blanket so I know on some level she must consider me important! Most of the time I only feel one step ahead of her shenanigans. Damn smart dogs!

[Pjrt]

Can we say 'Chow Chow"!!! My Chow boy was as stubborn as hell. It was always, 'hmmm, just give me fifteen minutes to think about what I get out of that request' . But you know he really was the best dog I have ever owned or known. He was intensely loyal and protective of me and mine without any display or show, was a deep thinker, and had the ultimate dog smarts. He knew himself and never questioned what he was about. He was not easily distracted by the fluff of everyday life. He would never refuse a request from me as long as he was given the latitude to respond in a Chow like manner.