Vulnerable Native Breeds (Uk)

[poocow]

I told the OH about this list last night and he may have suggested we get into breeding field spaniels one day :D

Breeding Fields is a challenge and requires a deep pocket lol

[OutOfSightHound]

Corgis aren't at risk. Plenty of Pembrokes being bred around the world and Cardigans seem to be gaining popularity steadily. This information came about a while ago and Corgi breeders explained that it is not the case when you consider numbers in other countries.

It not just the numbers its about how many founders your breed had in the beginning and how many of thoses genes breed on. http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/IIID3Bottlenecks.shtml

this little game explains it all and is a big part of the reason some of our breeds have such awful health problems and short life spans. Also new mutations are rarely helpful in genetic variation, statistically they are more likely to cause problems than be of benifit. So no mutations rarely help with new genetic material in a population. best option is outcrossing to as unrelated population as possible of another breed.

Edited May 25, 2015 by OutOfSightHound

[OutOfSightHound]

Stupid question but if they are "man made breeds" (as most purebred dogs are), then surely they could just be recreated in future if people wanted them (of course it will take a few generations, but they aren't really ever going to be extinct, as they were developed from a few base breeds in the first place?).

Oh if it was only that easy we would just be able to pluck a breed off the shelf and mate them and make or remake the required breed.

Not to mention that many of the breeds originally used to produce the now vulnerable breeds are themselves now extinct.

It is that easy :) you don't need the orginal breeds. Chicken people have recreated a large number of breeds in Australia because they can't import birds anymore. All you need to know is temprement and phenotype and you can use what ever you like using the standard as your guide. Lots of cross bred terrier and bitzers out there in working terrier land that would be perfect for breed recreation. The Cochin Chicken is a great example as its from China and we can't import birds from there. http://www.brahmacochin.org/lancehicksmemorial.htm

[OutOfSightHound]

Yep it's true for the Manchester, good to see numbers have almost doubled in the UK since 2010. The Manchester was very close to extinction. Some websites report that the numbers got down to just 11 registered in the UK.

It is surprising to see some on that list that you wouldn't really consider 'rare' though

Thats even more worrying for the breed. You had a severe population bottle neck. Have a read here as it explains how dangerous this is for a breed.Bottle necks The little white ball in this example could be a gene for producing normal uric acid. This is exactly what happened to Dalamations somewhere along the way a very important alle for making uric acid was lost, which is why bottle necks are so dangerous for a population of animals.

Also breed doesnt have to be "rare" to be in genetic trouble. poodles have some serious issues with a bottle neck in their population. The Problem with Poodles. So much so they use a calculation called the % Wycliffe as well as COI.

Edited May 25, 2015 by OutOfSightHound

[_PL_]

Stupid question but if they are "man made breeds" (as most purebred dogs are), then surely they could just be recreated in future if people wanted them (of course it will take a few generations, but they aren't really ever going to be extinct, as they were developed from a few base breeds in the first place?).

Oh if it was only that easy we would just be able to pluck a breed off the shelf and mate them and make or remake the required breed.

Not to mention that many of the breeds originally used to produce the now vulnerable breeds are themselves now extinct.

It is that easy :) you don't need the orginal breeds. Chicken people have recreated a large number of breeds in Australia because they can't import birds anymore. All you need to know is temprement and phenotype and you can use what ever you like using the standard as your guide. Lots of cross bred terrier and bitzers out there in working terrier land that would be perfect for breed recreation. The Cochin Chicken is a great example as its from China and we can't import birds from there. http://www.brahmacochin.org/lancehicksmemorial.htm

But wouldn't that produce generations of crosses as the breed is 'recreated'? I understand the chickens thing, but dogs aren't chickens. You can't just eat the ones who are not to breed standard.

Despite what it may look like, I'm not asking to be difficult :laugh:

[Sandra777]

Consider the introduction of the bobtail gene into the Boxer and how quickly they came back to looking 100% Boxer. Re-creating some breeds would be reasonably simple, others would take a lot more work I suspect.

While on the subject of re-creating a breed though, what would you actually try to re-create? The original breed or the modern KC version. Huge difference in many breeds.

[Leah82]

I told the OH about this list last night and he may have suggested we get into breeding field spaniels one day :D

Breeding Fields is a challenge and requires a deep pocket lol

Any particular reason for this? apart from the obvious needing to import semen due to the small gene pool in Australia

[OutOfSightHound]

Stupid question but if they are "man made breeds" (as most purebred dogs are), then surely they could just be recreated in future if people wanted them (of course it will take a few generations, but they aren't really ever going to be extinct, as they were developed from a few base breeds in the first place?).

Oh if it was only that easy we would just be able to pluck a breed off the shelf and mate them and make or remake the required breed.

Not to mention that many of the breeds originally used to produce the now vulnerable breeds are themselves now extinct.

It is that easy :) you don't need the orginal breeds. Chicken people have recreated a large number of breeds in Australia because they can't import birds anymore. All you need to know is temprement and phenotype and you can use what ever you like using the standard as your guide. Lots of cross bred terrier and bitzers out there in working terrier land that would be perfect for breed recreation. The Cochin Chicken is a great example as its from China and we can't import birds from there. http://www.brahmacochin.org/lancehicksmemorial.htm

But wouldn't that produce generations of crosses as the breed is 'recreated'? I understand the chickens thing, but dogs aren't chickens. You can't just eat the ones who are not to breed standard.

Despite what it may look like, I'm not asking to be difficult :laugh:

Well we aren't in China are we so no one will be eating the surplus , but I dont think it will be hard to find homes for the dogs in the early parts of the program that don't make the cut. People already love X breed designer dogs. If the program went on using regular outcrosses with the guidence of a population genetecist you could recreate the breed healther and hardier than the orginal.

Edited May 26, 2015 by OutOfSightHound

[poocow]

I told the OH about this list last night and he may have suggested we get into breeding field spaniels one day :D

Breeding Fields is a challenge and requires a deep pocket lol

Any particular reason for this? apart from the obvious needing to import semen due to the small gene pool in Australia

Fields can be hard to breed - fertility seems to decline rapidly once middle aged in both dogs and bitches. Field semen isn't great frozen. No cases of success here in Australia.

Odds are if you get a bitch it is probably already the result of a line breed so you'll need to go out to breed her. Then you're looking at a live import or frozen semen- and that's just 1 gen. Repeat again and import for gen 2. Hence the deep pockets!!!

[mita]

What interest me about these native dog breeds, is how embedded they are with the history in the UK, & regional parts of the UK. Like they have heritage value as well!

I love reading history, especially the social history, & it's amazing how often dogs turn up in accounts & documents of past times. Dogs' lives are so intertwined with people's ... & it's always been so. Learning about the dogs in history is a way of learning more about the people of that time.

Here was one attempt at Crufts to match dog handlers in costumes, with native breeds associated with that figure in British literature or history:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/canine-crusaders-meet-the-doghandlers-dedicated-to-saving-the-best-of-british-breeds-792438.html

There's a Skye Terrier with his handler dressed as the PC whose grave the famous Greyfriars Bobby guarded for 14 years.

Handler said the breed is amazingly loyal. Like the one that, centuries before, sneaked in with his Mary Queen of Scots at her execution.

Edited May 26, 2015 by mita

[Stressmagnet]

Just annoyed that Gordon Setters are on the list. That's my daydream dog, dammit.

[Steve]

These are the Aussie stats - and keep in mind that because of the limited register use, only about 10% - 20% of those bred are able to be used for breeding registered puppies. My link

If we keep the limit register which is not being used as it was originally intended to be used the gene pool shrinks more and more every year.

If we limit breeders to having under 10 fertile dogs we give them even less choices in their breeding programs.

[Kirislin]

These are the Aussie stats - and keep in mind that because of the limited register use, only about 10% - 20% of those bred are able to be used for breeding registered puppies. My link

If we keep the limit register which is not being used as it was originally intended to be used the gene pool shrinks more and more every year.

If we limit breeders to having under 10 fertile dogs we give them even less choices in their breeding programs.

wow, numbers are really going down aren't they?

[Kirislin]

found an interesting page on one of the links posted by Outofsighthound. It links to facebook Breeding for the Future pages for many breeds. www.instituteofcaninebiology.org/bff-breed-groups.html

you might need to cut n paste that link.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Kirislin

[OutOfSightHound]

These are the Aussie stats - and keep in mind that because of the limited register use, only about 10% - 20% of those bred are able to be used for breeding registered puppies. My link

If we keep the limit register which is not being used as it was originally intended to be used the gene pool shrinks more and more every year.

If we limit breeders to having under 10 fertile dogs we give them even less choices in their breeding programs.

wow, numbers are really going down aren't they?

That the scary part is each generation your just about throwing out 90% of these genes as most dogs go into pet homes on a spay neuter contract. If SA gets its mandatory spay neuter it will be even worse! Lets hope they decide against it. We are basicaly funnelling breeds into an ever diminishing gene pool.

[OutOfSightHound]

These are the Aussie stats - and keep in mind that because of the limited register use, only about 10% - 20% of those bred are able to be used for breeding registered puppies. My link

If we keep the limit register which is not being used as it was originally intended to be used the gene pool shrinks more and more every year.

If we limit breeders to having under 10 fertile dogs we give them even less choices in their breeding programs.

I really dislike the Limited register because its used to stop people breeding. Co ownership also is fraught with issues and breeders wont sign off on this and that. I often think the ANKC is always reactionary rather then innovative. It never seems to get in front of or even with the times. Breeding is not politically correct nowdays and I think the ANKC has been really slow to counter it. Rather it panders to the animal rights rescue agenda, which from a population genetics point of view is extremely damgaing to dog breeds, this is even before you get into the issue of closed studbook and anti crossbreeding/outcrossing rules.

[Steve]

These are the Aussie stats - and keep in mind that because of the limited register use, only about 10% - 20% of those bred are able to be used for breeding registered puppies. My link

If we keep the limit register which is not being used as it was originally intended to be used the gene pool shrinks more and more every year.

If we limit breeders to having under 10 fertile dogs we give them even less choices in their breeding programs.

I really dislike the Limited register because its used to stop people breeding. Co ownership also is fraught with issues and breeders wont sign off on this and that. I often think the ANKC is always reactionary rather then innovative. It never seems to get in front of or even with the times. Breeding is not politically correct nowdays and I think the ANKC has been really slow to counter it. Rather it panders to the animal rights rescue agenda, which from a population genetics point of view is extremely damgaing to dog breeds, this is even before you get into the issue of closed studbook and anti crossbreeding/outcrossing rules.

Yep I'd agree with you 100%.